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Old 07-13-2017, 06:58 AM
 
3,502 posts, read 1,792,553 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Immigrants don't necessarily mean blue-collar. From what I have seen and met, these are white-collar immigrants. They like yummy food, just like the rest of us. And while there are certain items that are heat and eat, there also is lots and lots of cheese, meats, vegetables. SPICES!!! I actually know a lot of people who don't fit into that "yuppie hipster" category in any respect who shop there. I take it you haven't?

As far as the one in Queens.... It has a lot of people there because there aren't any in the borough. (There might be one close to LI. The parking lot is so inadequate that its a nightmare to shop.

I believe TJs started in Manhattan, but it would be stretching it to say it's because it was in Manhattan.

As someone who is moving out a my neighborhood and into Parkchester, I can say a lot about how I have seen this transform. I presently live in Ridgewood. When I moved in, it was primarily a blue-collar working class area filled with old timers; Italian and German mostly firefighters, cops, retired teachers, new comers; Polish who worked a lot of construction, restaurant work and lots and lots of Puerto Ricans, some on housing programs and many doing odd jobs. Ridgewood had one or two good grocers and a few mediocre restaurants, butt ugly aesthetics, and sort of sucky transportation. You had to work hard to find stores that had useful items in stock. The M line did not run at all on weekends and its not close to highways. During rush hour, it still runs every 10 minutes at best. Nevertheless, it was affordable and by a subway line. As people flocked towards Bushwick and then were priced out, they started looking to Ridgewood. It did not have any of the amenities that these yuppie paradises have. It also didn't have urban blight as seen in Bushwick for a lot of conversions. Nevertheless, they came, and they came and they came. Ridgewood is throughly gentrified at this point. It isn't Bushwick, but there is a cafe on almost every block, artisnal beer, pilates and yoga studios and new restaurants cropping up everywhere. (Also art galleries and paint night.) Those yuppie hipsters have transformed the area, for good or bad. But in speaking to them, they really don't have a lot of money. They put up with a lot in order to have somewhere, anywhere affordable to live. Ridgewood isn't close to the city like Williamsburg. It is a 45 min commute to FiDi and around the same to midtown. So I think if the housing stock is available, people will come. And I also wouldn't judge a book by it's cover. Modern day "blue collar" guys, especially of the immigrant variety are pretty open to new things. Most of them are hipsters in their night life. New immigrants are mostly of the "professional" class and are probably more open minded than native born Americans in the same profession. I mean it does take a certain level of open-mindedness to move to another country.
It's interesting that there are TONS of health food stores in Russian immigrant areas. I mean tons. And the pharmacies in general in these immigrant areas also tend to be natural product-oriented, lots of herbs (as well as medication of course).

Also, there is an Aldi's in Sheepshead Bay, a largely immigrant area.
I don't see why a Trader Joe's wouldn't succeed there.
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:40 AM
 
1,144 posts, read 391,342 times
Reputation: 1195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarius37 View Post
Pardon my long rant on this subject...

I haven't been around for a few months, just lurked, but I need to chime in.

As someone who makes just shy under the median income of NYC in a professional job the only rents I can afford hover around 1300 dollars a month with the 40x rent rule. After a year and a half of housing lottery fiascos I've have become a bit jaded. I got so close a few times only to lose out, but whatever, that's not the point of this thread.

Prior to that I was searching for apartments in the Bronx and there were some for 1200 dollars. This was when the section 8 allowance was about 1200 dollars for a one bedroom, and now it's 1500 dollars as of last year. COINCIDENCE much!? I do not begrudge people on Section 8, but it does place a horrible HORRIBLE price ceiling on apartments in the bronx.

So as a working person I cannot afford the new 1500 dollar a month pricetag for studios and one bedrooms in the bronx, but the gazillion people on section 8, CAN now all of a sudden.

Landlords ***** and moan about section 8 tenants, but it's an automatic check to them, and they can charge MUCH higher than market rates would go for in certain areas, so they do it. Well landlords are MORONS. They should rent to people with full time jobs who can afford 1200 instead of squeezing out the tax payers anal glands for that extra 300 they know they can to keep their buildings filled with section 8. It's frustrating and it really makes you realize that it's very hard to survive in this city unless you make a lot of money or on assistance. They probably figure their buildings are already so down-trodden and parasitic anyway, might as well keep it that way. How about extending a hand to real working class people in this city for a change!?

rant OVER

I already quoted this post, and noticed that Aquarius subsequently commented how this thread had become damn boring :-) (admittedly, his problems are bigger than the absence of Trader Joe's in Parkchester). I am getting back to it because I find it mind blowing that a young dude who is working cannot find a decent place to live BECAUSE HE IS WORKING, as opposed to somebody who can live on Section 8 in a relatively high-priced apartment because he is not working?? I mean ?!?!? Where is logic, where is sanity??? Aquarius, you should send your post to de Blasio, to Albany, AND to New York Times. I am serious. This simply cannot be.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:45 AM
 
11,493 posts, read 5,547,302 times
Reputation: 5949
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Do you remember when Williamsburg was a hellhole? What about Bushwick?
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
That's what people said about Williamsburg 15 years ago. A lot of companies are now getting tax credits to operate in the South Bronx.
Williamsburg didn't become that expensive overnight.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:47 AM
 
11,493 posts, read 5,547,302 times
Reputation: 5949
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Where? I'd like to know because as far as I can see, there are no yuppie havens sub $2,500. Especially not in Brooklyn, Queens or Manhattan. The only places left are the Bronx and Staten Island. (Or you can move out to a train + bus zone in the boonies of Queens, or the boonies of Brooklyn. (Midwood, or Mill Basin.) These are not exactly yuppie havens though.
That apartment is listed for 3200. I'm pretty sure you can get a 2BR in a nicer neighborhood for that price or cheaper. Even somewhere like Kensington.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:48 AM
 
11,493 posts, read 5,547,302 times
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Also, Williamsburg in 2002 was more gentrified than Mott Haven is now.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:56 AM
 
23,247 posts, read 16,056,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995 View Post
Williamsburg didn't become that expensive overnight.
But it goes there is the point.

So we certainly can't say the South Bronx can't gentrifying. It's in the early stages of it.
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:04 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
7,548 posts, read 2,685,297 times
Reputation: 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
But it goes there is the point.

So we certainly can't say the South Bronx can't gentrifying. It's in the early stages of it.
Has been in the *early stages* now for a while. Cannot compare the South Bronx to Brooklyn. All sorts of differences. Can tell you gentrification won't be the same. Am thinking you have a hard time understanding why and focus on things like tax credits, etc. The Bronx is no Brooklyn. Am here to say that there are many forces in play trying to control gentrification more than anything. The amount of affordable housing projects alone won't allow the South Bronx to gentrify the way Williasmburg has.
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Old 07-13-2017, 12:56 PM
 
747 posts, read 268,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Well, I'm an immigrant, and I get about 95% of my food at Trader Joe's. In a hallway of a building in the Parkchester North, about 7 years ago, I saw a young man waiting for the elevator who, if he wasn't an immigrant, must have been a child of immigrants, from South Asia. He was lugging a standard biochemistry textbook, used worldwide in premed college programs and medical schools. How much do you know about immigrants, and are you aware that a legal immigrant not immigrating through family ties essentially must have advanced professional training? Immigrants typically don't have any wealth, but do have culturally plenty more than the welfare class, in fact cannot be even remotely compared to the welfare class in terms of values and behavior. And many young people with college degrees in humanities, who work at McDonald's, are the modern working class. So actually, immigrants and working class WOULD definitely shop at Trader Joe's (and they do, I see them every day when I shop there).
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Immigrants don't necessarily mean blue-collar. From what I have seen and met, these are white-collar immigrants. They like yummy food, just like the rest of us. And while there are certain items that are heat and eat, there also is lots and lots of cheese, meats, vegetables. SPICES!!! I actually know a lot of people who don't fit into that "yuppie hipster" category in any respect who shop there. I take it you haven't?

As far as the one in Queens.... It has a lot of people there because there aren't any in the borough. (There might be one close to LI. The parking lot is so inadequate that its a nightmare to shop.

I believe TJs started in Manhattan, but it would be stretching it to say it's because it was in Manhattan.

As someone who is moving out a my neighborhood and into Parkchester, I can say a lot about how I have seen this transform. I presently live in Ridgewood. When I moved in, it was primarily a blue-collar working class area filled with old timers; Italian and German mostly firefighters, cops, retired teachers, new comers; Polish who worked a lot of construction, restaurant work and lots and lots of Puerto Ricans, some on housing programs and many doing odd jobs. Ridgewood had one or two good grocers and a few mediocre restaurants, butt ugly aesthetics, and sort of sucky transportation. You had to work hard to find stores that had useful items in stock. The M line did not run at all on weekends and its not close to highways. During rush hour, it still runs every 10 minutes at best. Nevertheless, it was affordable and by a subway line. As people flocked towards Bushwick and then were priced out, they started looking to Ridgewood. It did not have any of the amenities that these yuppie paradises have. It also didn't have urban blight as seen in Bushwick for a lot of conversions. Nevertheless, they came, and they came and they came. Ridgewood is throughly gentrified at this point. It isn't Bushwick, but there is a cafe on almost every block, artisnal beer, pilates and yoga studios and new restaurants cropping up everywhere. (Also art galleries and paint night.) Those yuppie hipsters have transformed the area, for good or bad. But in speaking to them, they really don't have a lot of money. They put up with a lot in order to have somewhere, anywhere affordable to live. Ridgewood isn't close to the city like Williamsburg. It is a 45 min commute to FiDi and around the same to midtown. So I think if the housing stock is available, people will come. And I also wouldn't judge a book by it's cover. Modern day "blue collar" guys, especially of the immigrant variety are pretty open to new things. Most of them are hipsters in their night life. New immigrants are mostly of the "professional" class and are probably more open minded than native born Americans in the same profession. I mean it does take a certain level of open-mindedness to move to another country.
Oh good grief, some of you guys are defensive. Demographics matter and they influence where chains open stores. You guys are putting words into my mouth. I never said that all immigrants this, all blue collar that. I never said that all immigrants are blue collar. Nor did I say that only non-immigrants, non blue-collar folks shop at Trader Joe's. Or only people with money shop at Trader Joe's. Or only yuppie hipsters. And it goes on. Like are you guys even reading my posts or just upset that I said that Parkchester may not be an ideal spot for a Trader Joe's store?

There is plenty of market research out there and obviously the chains do their own internal research as well. I mean, why doesn't Trader Joe's just open a location in every single neighborhood of NYC? Pretty much anywhere, there will be some demand. But is there enough demand for the store to make money compared to other locations? The demographics matter. The competitive landscape matters. I shop at ethnic markets often myself because I cook other cuisines at times and need certain ingredients. I also find their produce/meat/spice/etc quality to be high and prices to be cheap. That's what Trader Joe's might be competing with in some immigrant neighborhoods. This is not to say that some of the same people won't also shop at Trader Joe's or other markets but the average bill at these stores would be lower. And from Trader Joe's perspective, would they be making enough profit? Or is it better for them to open up in areas that are more dense with the demographic that is likely to spend more dollars there on a regular basis?

Same goes for any other group you want to discuss. When you look at the groups as a whole, there are often notable differences in their buying patterns. People with cars vs. people without cars. Singles vs. couples vs. families. Younger folks vs. middle age vs. elderly. Urban vs. suburban vs. rural. High school vs. college-educated vs. higher-degree. And so it goes. This is not to say that every single person of each group behaves exactly the same way but there are certain trends that emerge when you look at the overall market.

I mean, let's bring this question back around to the original topic of this thread. Why shouldn't Trader Joe's just open up a location in the South Bronx right now? Surely, there are some folks there who desire Trader Joe's products. The area has great mass transit access with connections to multiple subway lines and has been the subject of endless gentrification discussion. As you guys mentioned, there are many immigrants that are economically mobile and neighborhoods can change very quickly. We can't judge a book by its cover, right? What's the impediment? Doesn't the South Bronx deserve a Trader Joe's store?

And if you answer honestly, it's going to be about the current demographics. They matter. And that was really the subject of my other posts....it seemed to me that the demographics of Parkchester don't match up with the current Trader Joe's stores in NYC. Surely, the company does a lot of market research in deciding where to open up new locations and the current ones have certain things in common. So is Parkchester a good spot or maybe another Bronx neighborhood would be better? I'm just speculating on the business. No need to get defensive on behalf of whatever group you think I'm offending.
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Old 07-13-2017, 02:08 PM
 
23,247 posts, read 16,056,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeoplewatchingNative View Post
Well I heard that whole foods is going to start or TRY to start a little pilot program of "bodega like" stores in "areas in need of healthy options". I'm not sure how well that's going to go with the local businesses, but I'm sure the residents will be thrilled if it happens.
They have been bought by Amazon, which does direct deliveries.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:18 PM
 
Location: New York
2,576 posts, read 2,672,449 times
Reputation: 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by MC305 View Post
And if you answer honestly, it's going to be about the current demographics. They matter. And that was really the subject of my other posts....it seemed to me that the demographics of Parkchester don't match up with the current Trader Joe's stores in NYC. Surely, the company does a lot of market research in deciding where to open up new locations and the current ones have certain things in common. So is Parkchester a good spot or maybe another Bronx neighborhood would be better? I'm just speculating on the business. No need to get defensive on behalf of whatever group you think I'm offending.
Data is raw and interpretation is subject to point of view, interpretation and bias. I work with data in my day job. I also predicted Hillary Clinton would lose because they were running on an outdated interpretation of the data. They still don't get it.

I think the traditional model of interpreting what people will want in terms of ingestible consumables is no longer valid. I think any neighborhood that offers heathy choices as reasonable prices will do well in every neighborhood. It's been my observation, that people of every race, every creed, every socio-economic background, when offered a healthy alternative, will chose it.

The fact that these choices are not offered in some areas over others is about the bias of the business owners. We're not talking about aspirational non-essentials, we're talking about food. This isn't 1990. Everyone under 40 got the memo.
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