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Old 07-13-2017, 04:27 PM
 
11,493 posts, read 5,547,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Data is raw and interpretation is subject to point of view, interpretation and bias. I work with data in my day job. I also predicted Hillary Clinton would lose because they were running on an outdated interpretation of the data. They still don't get it.

I think the traditional model of interpreting what people will want in terms of ingestible consumables is no longer valid. I think any neighborhood that offers heathy choices as reasonable prices will do well in every neighborhood. It's been my observation, that people of every race, every creed, every socio-economic background, when offered a healthy alternative, will chose it.

The fact that these choices are not offered in some areas over others is about the bias of the business owners. We're not talking about aspirational non-essentials, we're talking about food. This isn't 1990. Everyone under 40 got the memo.
I still fail to see why a Whole Foods is healthier than a C-Town. You don't have to buy junk food at a run of the mill supermarket. You can buy fresh ingredients that would be no less healthy than those from Whole Foods.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:34 PM
 
Location: New York, NY
7,548 posts, read 2,685,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995 View Post
I still fail to see why a Whole Foods is healthier than a C-Town. You don't have to buy junk food at a run of the mill supermarket. You can buy fresh ingredients that would be no less healthy than those from Whole Foods.
It's obvious that your idea of *fresh* isn't the same as hers. Why can't you understand that? She wants food that is *organic* and has said that numerous times. C-Town is not know to sell such items. You obviously don't eat organic food because if you did, you would know that the taste is not the same as food that is not organic. It's generally a well known fact that organic options generally are lacking in more working class areas because of the cost. Organic costs more due to more labor involved in addition to the requirements that have to be followed. C-Town is not going to carry such items because of the clientele they are serving. Someone making very little money will buy what they can afford, and that likely won't be organic.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:38 PM
 
Location: New York
2,573 posts, read 2,671,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995 View Post
I still fail to see why a Whole Foods is healthier than a C-Town. You don't have to buy junk food at a run of the mill supermarket. You can buy fresh ingredients that would be no less healthy than those from Whole Foods.
Not really. Have you seen the stock in some of the supermarkets? Food that is over ripe, or under ripe, scraggily looking. And then in the average supermarket, organic produce is 25-50% more than at TJs. Some of the food I have seen at C-Town I wouldn't take if I were given it for free. And that's not acceptable.

And fwiw - Ask a poor person this. "If you have a place that sold quality produce at the price of regular supermarket produce, would you pass it over." Said no poor person ever.
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:43 PM
 
Location: New York
2,573 posts, read 2,671,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrepont7731 View Post
It's obvious that your idea of *fresh* isn't the same as hers. Why can't you understand that? She wants food that is *organic* and has said that numerous times. C-Town is not know to sell such items. You obviously don't eat organic food because if you did, you would know that the taste is not the same as food that is not organic. It's generally a well known fact that organic options generally are lacking in more working class areas because of the cost. Organic costs more due to more labor involved in addition to the requirements that have to be followed. C-Town is not going to carry such items because of the clientele they are serving. Someone making very little money will buy what they can afford, and that likely won't be organic.
I don't usually buy organic BECAUSE of the cost or I will buy the store brand of organic which I know isn't the same quality as regular organic, but its better than average. Instead I do go to the best grocer I can find in the area. It generally is not the supermarket. However, if there were a TJs I would shop there almost daily. I am a busy person with a low stamina. I'm just not into taking groceries on the subway (or express bus) and lugging it an hour away. In fact, I hate carrying a large amount of groceries so much that I have all of my groceries delivered by PeaPod... unless it's fresh produce, which of course I get locally. (Peapod is great, but they under deliver in the produce department. I do not recommend.) A lot of this behavior is dictated by the fact that I don't live in an area that makes having and obtaining this stuff super easy for my frazzled mom with a demanding full time job lifestyle. I'm super excited that I can join the Parkchester CSA because that will only be a few blocks from my house and I can have fresh locally sourced food at a reasonable price! (Around $13 a week for a half share.)
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:47 PM
 
1,144 posts, read 390,968 times
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To MC305: I wasn't being defensive, just accurate. You said that Trader Joe's wouldn't do well in Parkchester because it is mostly an immigrant/working class neighborhood. I just don't see your logic. As already discussed, most immigrants younger than 75 don't particularly insist upon eating ethnic food from exclusively ethnic groceries (I certainly don't), and as far as cost of Trader Joe's items, have you heard of Two Buck Chuck? I think the official name of that wine is Charles Shaw Vineyards or similar - it is a legend among homeless alcoholics, because even they can afford it in almost unlimited quantities. It is sold exclusively by Trader Joe's. Definitely not above the budget of an average Parkchester resident :-).

I1995, as I already said, TJ s food is slightly cheaper than the same food at C-Town (specifically, eggs, chicken white meat, and bananas - examples of staple food, where non-organic varieties of all of the three are cheaper at TJ s than C-Town), plus you have a far better choice of food at TJs if you want to pay slightly more (just slightly more, not twice as much as at Whole Foods).
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:04 AM
 
1,144 posts, read 390,968 times
Reputation: 1195
Quote:
Originally Posted by MC305 View Post
Oh good grief, some of you guys are defensive. Demographics matter and they influence where chains open stores. You guys are putting words into my mouth. I never said that all immigrants this, all blue collar that. I never said that all immigrants are blue collar. Nor did I say that only non-immigrants, non blue-collar folks shop at Trader Joe's. Or only people with money shop at Trader Joe's. Or only yuppie hipsters. And it goes on. Like are you guys even reading my posts or just upset that I said that Parkchester may not be an ideal spot for a Trader Joe's store?

There is plenty of market research out there and obviously the chains do their own internal research as well. I mean, why doesn't Trader Joe's just open a location in every single neighborhood of NYC? Pretty much anywhere, there will be some demand. But is there enough demand for the store to make money compared to other locations? The demographics matter. The competitive landscape matters. I shop at ethnic markets often myself because I cook other cuisines at times and need certain ingredients. I also find their produce/meat/spice/etc quality to be high and prices to be cheap. That's what Trader Joe's might be competing with in some immigrant neighborhoods. This is not to say that some of the same people won't also shop at Trader Joe's or other markets but the average bill at these stores would be lower. And from Trader Joe's perspective, would they be making enough profit? Or is it better for them to open up in areas that are more dense with the demographic that is likely to spend more dollars there on a regular basis?

Same goes for any other group you want to discuss. When you look at the groups as a whole, there are often notable differences in their buying patterns. People with cars vs. people without cars. Singles vs. couples vs. families. Younger folks vs. middle age vs. elderly. Urban vs. suburban vs. rural. High school vs. college-educated vs. higher-degree. And so it goes. This is not to say that every single person of each group behaves exactly the same way but there are certain trends that emerge when you look at the overall market.

I mean, let's bring this question back around to the original topic of this thread. Why shouldn't Trader Joe's just open up a location in the South Bronx right now? Surely, there are some folks there who desire Trader Joe's products. The area has great mass transit access with connections to multiple subway lines and has been the subject of endless gentrification discussion. As you guys mentioned, there are many immigrants that are economically mobile and neighborhoods can change very quickly. We can't judge a book by its cover, right? What's the impediment? Doesn't the South Bronx deserve a Trader Joe's store?

And if you answer honestly, it's going to be about the current demographics. They matter. And that was really the subject of my other posts....it seemed to me that the demographics of Parkchester don't match up with the current Trader Joe's stores in NYC. Surely, the company does a lot of market research in deciding where to open up new locations and the current ones have certain things in common. So is Parkchester a good spot or maybe another Bronx neighborhood would be better? I'm just speculating on the business. No need to get defensive on behalf of whatever group you think I'm offending.
Parkchester is in the center of the Bronx, and has an old, well established commercial strip with a huge foot traffic. If Trader Joe's opens in the Bronx, Parkchester would be THE place for it. Trader Joe's has stores all over the country, in a wide spectrum of demographic areas, but, per my observation, frequently well away from the trendiest ones (they operate as a low-cost grocery chain - do you think they want to pay the highest rent in the city for their store?). I was just recently in Denver, and there is a TJs there a couple of blocks away from a $30 per night hostel filled with backpacker demographic and a $0 per night city park filled with homeless demographic.

The other good place for a Bronx Trader Joe's might be somewhere around the Zoo/tourists. Still within walking distance (assuming a bit of exercise, which is as good for you as shopping at TJs) from Parkchester.

Last edited by elnrgby; 07-14-2017 at 06:33 AM..
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:42 AM
 
3,502 posts, read 1,792,553 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Parkchester is in the center of the Bronx, and has an old, well established commercial strip with a huge foot traffic. If Trader Joe's opens in the Bronx, Parkchester would be THE place for it. Trader Joe's has stores all over the country, in a wide spectrum of demographic areas, but, per my observation, frequently well away from the trendiest ones (they operate as a low-cost grocery chain - do you think they want to pay the highest rent in the city for their store?). I was just recently in Denver, and there is a TJs there a couple of blocks away from a $30 per night hostel filled with backpacker demographic and a $0 per night city park filled with homeless demographic.

The other good place for a Bronx Trader Joe's might be somewhere around the Zoo/tourists. Still within walking distance (assuming a bit of exercise, which is as good for you as shopping at TJs) from Parkchester.
Is Parkchester really the center of the Bronx?
I always thought it was in the northern Bronx.
(edited, I see it's not. For some reason that's how it was always described to me.)
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:52 AM
 
746 posts, read 268,614 times
Reputation: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Data is raw and interpretation is subject to point of view, interpretation and bias. I work with data in my day job. I also predicted Hillary Clinton would lose because they were running on an outdated interpretation of the data. They still don't get it.

I think the traditional model of interpreting what people will want in terms of ingestible consumables is no longer valid. I think any neighborhood that offers heathy choices as reasonable prices will do well in every neighborhood. It's been my observation, that people of every race, every creed, every socio-economic background, when offered a healthy alternative, will chose it.

The fact that these choices are not offered in some areas over others is about the bias of the business owners. We're not talking about aspirational non-essentials, we're talking about food. This isn't 1990. Everyone under 40 got the memo.
Depends on how you define "doing well" for businesses. Which was really my point. It's not just turning a profit, it's maximizing returns. It comes down to the numbers. How does a store decide how to allocate resources? Broad statements like everyone wants healthy food doesn't really mean anything. Do you think Trader Joe's should open up a store in the South Bronx today? I think it doesn't make financial sense unless the company was given incentives to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
To MC305: I wasn't being defensive, just accurate. You said that Trader Joe's wouldn't do well in Parkchester because it is mostly an immigrant/working class neighborhood. I just don't see your logic. As already discussed, most immigrants younger than 75 don't particularly insist upon eating ethnic food from exclusively ethnic groceries (I certainly don't), and as far as cost of Trader Joe's items, have you heard of Two Buck Chuck? I think the official name of that wine is Charles Shaw Vineyards or similar - it is a legend among homeless alcoholics, because even they can afford it in almost unlimited quantities. It is sold exclusively by Trader Joe's. Definitely not above the budget of an average Parkchester resident :-).

I1995, as I already said, TJ s food is slightly cheaper than the same food at C-Town (specifically, eggs, chicken white meat, and bananas - examples of staple food, where non-organic varieties of all of the three are cheaper at TJ s than C-Town), plus you have a far better choice of food at TJs if you want to pay slightly more (just slightly more, not twice as much as at Whole Foods).
I think my logic is pretty clear. You may disagree and that's fine. It's funny how you would characterize your comments as accurate when we're all speculating. None of the Trader Joe's stores in NYC are in working class/immigrant neighborhoods. And when someone misrepresents my comments and accuses me of not knowing immigrants, yeah, I find that a bit defensive.

I'm also not sure where you got your stat about the 75% and whether it pertains to NYC but it doesn't really matter. I never said that immigrants shop exclusively at ethnic groceries. And neighborhoods vary. Frankly I don't know that much about Parkchester so I was speaking more broadly about the immigrant neighborhoods in which I am familiar in NYC. They have a lot of good quality grocery options, affordable takeout, good bakeries, etc. There aren't as many traditional supermarkets. On weekends, these neighborhoods get flooded with locals doing their weekly shopping as well as people from outside the neighborhood including the suburbs. I personally don't think Trader Joe's would do that well in this type of neighborhood. Trader Joe's is not as price-competitive, doesn't offer ingredients necessary for certain cuisines, and in my experience with the NYC locations, doesn't offer good quality produce. I can do much better in the ethnic markets. The ready-to-eat products that Trader Joe's sell are also less of an allure when there are so many affordable takeout options.

And my point wasn't really about affordability so bringing up Two Buck Chuck is not really relevant. (By the way, in NYC, Trader Joe's is only allowed to operate one wine store and that's in Union Square.) Also it's not as if Trader Joe's products are directly comparable to those of other supermarkets. Most of their stuff is under their house brand. That's the store's business model. Why do consumers shop at Trader Joe's over other supermarkets? A large part of it is the branding. "Healthier" food that the company carefully sources and sells at reasonable prices under their house brand. This type of marketing appeals to certain groups more than others. It's just what it is. (And again, please don't misrepresent my words. I'm not saying all people of one group and none of the other or anything like that.)

And if you do want to talk about price competitiveness, then that will vary by neighborhood. Trader Joe's might be more competitive in higher-rent areas of Manhattan but less competitive in lower-rent areas. It really varies. For those who are truly price-sensitive, there are often cheaper options. Aldi's was mentioned a couple of times. There are also dollar stores, smaller grocers, etc. And the aforementioned ethnic markets. Big box stores like Costco and Target. Even large supermarket chains have different prices depending on the neighborhood.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:08 AM
 
1,144 posts, read 390,968 times
Reputation: 1195
Okay, well, let's meet again on this thread in a few years. Time will tell who was right.
Btw, I said "immigrants under 75 (year old)", not 75% of immigrants. It is not a stat, but common experience. At present, I live mostly in Boston (though I travel a lot, for work and otherwise), and much of my large condo building is occupied by immigrants, mostly from various parts of Asia. All I see in the recycling area in the basement are Trader Joe's paper shopping bags, although Chinatown is not far, and there are Indian and Middle Eastern groceries in Boston as well (and Eastern European ones, presumably for me, except that I never shop there :-)..
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:04 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,106 posts, read 21,722,272 times
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Well, I think we're all pretty clearily on the side that the South Bronx specifically will not be able to support a Trader Joe's or a Whole Foods for a while. Maybe some other parts of the Bronx, but not the South Bronx.
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