Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Depends on how you define "doing well" for businesses. Which was really my point. It's not just turning a profit, it's maximizing returns. It comes down to the numbers. How does a store decide how to allocate resources? Broad statements like everyone wants healthy food doesn't really mean anything. Do you think Trader Joe's should open up a store in the South Bronx today? I think it doesn't make financial sense unless the company was given incentives to do so.
I think my logic is pretty clear. You may disagree and that's fine. It's funny how you would characterize your comments as accurate when we're all speculating. None of the Trader Joe's stores in NYC are in working class/immigrant neighborhoods. And when someone misrepresents my comments and accuses me of not knowing immigrants, yeah, I find that a bit defensive.
I'm also not sure where you got your stat about the 75% and whether it pertains to NYC but it doesn't really matter. I never said that immigrants shop exclusively at ethnic groceries. And neighborhoods vary. Frankly I don't know that much about Parkchester so I was speaking more broadly about the immigrant neighborhoods in which I am familiar in NYC. They have a lot of good quality grocery options, affordable takeout, good bakeries, etc. There aren't as many traditional supermarkets. On weekends, these neighborhoods get flooded with locals doing their weekly shopping as well as people from outside the neighborhood including the suburbs. I personally don't think Trader Joe's would do that well in this type of neighborhood. Trader Joe's is not as price-competitive, doesn't offer ingredients necessary for certain cuisines, and in my experience with the NYC locations, doesn't offer good quality produce. I can do much better in the ethnic markets. The ready-to-eat products that Trader Joe's sell are also less of an allure when there are so many affordable takeout options.
And my point wasn't really about affordability so bringing up Two Buck Chuck is not really relevant. (By the way, in NYC, Trader Joe's is only allowed to operate one wine store and that's in Union Square.) Also it's not as if Trader Joe's products are directly comparable to those of other supermarkets. Most of their stuff is under their house brand. That's the store's business model. Why do consumers shop at Trader Joe's over other supermarkets? A large part of it is the branding. "Healthier" food that the company carefully sources and sells at reasonable prices under their house brand. This type of marketing appeals to certain groups more than others. It's just what it is. (And again, please don't misrepresent my words. I'm not saying all people of one group and none of the other or anything like that.)
And if you do want to talk about price competitiveness, then that will vary by neighborhood. Trader Joe's might be more competitive in higher-rent areas of Manhattan but less competitive in lower-rent areas. It really varies. For those who are truly price-sensitive, there are often cheaper options. Aldi's was mentioned a couple of times. There are also dollar stores, smaller grocers, etc. And the aforementioned ethnic markets. Big box stores like Costco and Target. Even large supermarket chains have different prices depending on the neighborhood.
The Lower East Side is getting a Trader Joes, and parts of the neighborhood are still full of immigrants and working class to poor.
There are Trader Joes in Staten Island and on Woodhaven Blvd, Queens, both of which are in non hip areas.
The Lower East Side is getting a Trader Joes, and parts of the neighborhood are still full of immigrants and working class to poor.
Oh I don't know about that. The LES like other areas of the city are feeling the price strain too. Only a matter time before more and more areas fully gentrify.
None of the Trader Joe's stores in NYC are in working class/immigrant neighborhoods. And when someone misrepresents my comments and accuses me of not knowing immigrants, yeah, I find that a bit defensive.
You OBVIOUSLY do not know Queens at all. The Trader Joe's in Queens is in Woodhaven. That's a pretty non-aspirational location of old time blue-collar white people. (Just the kind of people who stereo-typically would NOT eat healthy food.) Woodhaven is not exactly the bastion of progressiveness. It's there because relatively to the rest of Queens, the land is cheap. I consider that neighborhood no mans land. It's in the middle of nowhere, just like the Home Depot there, the Sport's Authority there couldn't stay in business so it was replace by a Dick's. (Terrible store!) The only draw to the area is the TJs, the Michael's and Home Depot. Otherwise, there is no reason to go that part of town, ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MC305
I was speaking more broadly about the immigrant neighborhoods in which I am familiar in NYC. They have a lot of good quality grocery options, affordable takeout, good bakeries, etc.
With all due respect, if you believe this, then your standards for food are somewhat low bar. The majority of neighborhoods have a few good ethnic restaurants (from whatever the majority of the area is), and that's it. The rest are pretty poor quality and not worth eating in. I won't eat Chinese anywhere other than Elmhurst, Flushing and some parts of Chinatown. It's rare to find a quality Chinese place outside of those areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MC305
I personally don't think Trader Joe's would do that well in this type of neighborhood.
Let me ask you. Do you think C-towns and Associateds have good quality food? (they have horrible food.) If you do, that informs your opinion about TJs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MC305
Trader Joe's is not as price-competitive
How would you know? You have already been informed that this axiom is untrue. Why do you think it's priced like Whole Foods? It's CHEAPER than my local Stop and Shop. How more competitive do you need to be? If people can afford to take the Express bus to work every day, they can afford to spend the prices in an average costing supermarket.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MC305
doesn't offer ingredients necessary for certain cuisines, and in my experience with the NYC locations, doesn't offer good quality produce.
Neither do the local supermarkets in almost EVERY neighborhood in NYC, unless you are in a heavy, heavy yuppie neighborhood. And those are rarer than not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MC305
I can do much better in the ethnic markets. The ready-to-eat products that Trader Joe's sell are also less of an allure when there are so many affordable takeout options.
Affordable and crappy take out? I'd eat Trader Joe's over 90% of the take-out places in Ridgewood because the food sucks at those restaurants and I am not willing to pay that much for crappy food. Only in the past two years is there anything worth eating in the hood, and that was because of the millennials moving in. However, eating out for one, vs. eating out for more than one, is also not worth it. I'm not going to spend $40 on a ok restaurant for my daughter and me when I can eat at home, have it taste better, have left overs and not be concerned about my kid snubbing her nose at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MC305
Also it's not as if Trader Joe's products are directly comparable to those of other supermarkets. Most of their stuff is under their house brand. That's the store's business model. Why do consumers shop at Trader Joe's over other supermarkets? A large part of it is the branding. "Healthier" food that the company carefully sources and sells at reasonable prices under their house brand. This type of marketing appeals to certain groups more than others. It's just what it is. (And again, please don't misrepresent my words. I'm not saying all people of one group and none of the other or anything like that.)
But there housebrand is taste tested. They do not carry any item. If it doesn't taste good, it isn't carries. It does not have the stigma of no-frills because it is quality products. Now I have bought things at Whole Foods on occasion. I can't say the same thing about them. There food is often under seasoned and bland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MC305
And if you do want to talk about price competitiveness, then that will vary by neighborhood. Trader Joe's might be more competitive in higher-rent areas of Manhattan but less competitive in lower-rent areas. It really varies. For those who are truly price-sensitive, there are often cheaper options. Aldi's was mentioned a couple of times. There are also dollar stores, smaller grocers, etc. And the aforementioned ethnic markets. Big box stores like Costco and Target. Even large supermarket chains have different prices depending on the neighborhood.
Ah, as I see it, you think Parkchester is bottom of the barrel in terms of income consumption ratio. It's not a wealthy area, but School teachers, Nurses, Law Enforcement, Computer Analyst, Architecture and Engineering, Business and Financial management do have some money to spend. It's unfortunate that these SOLID professions have been priced out of most of the the rest of the city, but that is not a reflection on them, but NYC politics and the oligarchs in charge.
I think you are operating out of some sort of bias, not based on the actual demographics.
Also, you have completely discounted the landscape and geography of the area. It's an area with a ton of big box brands; Macy's, NY & Co, Boltons, Sleepy's, Duane Reade, Starbucks etc. It's right off both the Cross Bronx Expressway, and the Bronx River Parkway. AND, it's close to the subway. Those are pretty important factors.
You OBVIOUSLY do not know Queens at all. The Trader Joe's in Queens is in Woodhaven. That's a pretty non-aspirational location of old time blue-collar white people. (Just the kind of people who stereo-typically would NOT eat healthy food.) Woodhaven is not exactly the bastion of progressiveness. It's there because relatively to the rest of Queens, the land is cheap. I consider that neighborhood no mans land. It's in the middle of nowhere, just like the Home Depot there, the Sport's Authority there couldn't stay in business so it was replace by a Dick's. (Terrible store!) The only draw to the area is the TJs, the Michael's and Home Depot. Otherwise, there is no reason to go that part of town, ever.
With all due respect, if you believe this, then your standards for food are somewhat low bar. The majority of neighborhoods have a few good ethnic restaurants (from whatever the majority of the area is), and that's it. The rest are pretty poor quality and not worth eating in. I won't eat Chinese anywhere other than Elmhurst, Flushing and some parts of Chinatown. It's rare to find a quality Chinese place outside of those areas.
Let me ask you. Do you think C-towns and Associateds have good quality food? If you do, that informs your opinion about TJs.
How would you know? You have already been informed that this axiom is untrue. Why do you think it's priced like Whole Foods? It's CHEAPER than my local Stop and Shop. How more competitive do you need to be? If people can afford to take the Express bus to work every day, they can afford to spend the prices in an average costing supermarket.
Neither do the local supermarkets in almost EVERY neighborhood in NYC, unless you are in a heavy, heavy yuppie neighborhood. And those are rarer than not.
Affordable and crappy take out? I'd eat Trader Joe's over 90% of the take-out places in Ridgewood because the food sucks at those restaurants and I am not willing to pay that much for crappy food. Only in the past two years is there anything worth eating in the hood, and that was because of the millennials moving in. However, eating out for one, vs. eating out for more than one, is also not worth it.
But there housebrand is taste tested. They do not carry any item. If it doesn't taste good, it isn't carries. It does not have the stigma of no-frills because it is quality products. Now I have bought things at Whole Foods on occasion. I can't say the same thing about them. There food is often under seasoned and bland.
Ah, as I see it, you think Parkchester is bottom of the barrel in terms of income consumption ratio. It's not a wealthy area, but School teachers, Nurses, Law Enforcement, Computer Analyst, Architecture and Engineering, Business and Financial management do have some money to spend. It's unfortunate that these SOLID professions have been priced out of most of the the rest of the city, but that is not a reflection on them, but NYC politics and the oligarchs in charge.
I think you are operating out of some sort of bias, not based on the actual demographics.
Also, you have completely discounted the landscape and geography of the area. It's an area with a ton of big box brands; Macy's, NY & Co, Boltons, Sleepy's, Duane Reade, Starbucks etc. It's right off both the Cross Bronx Expressway, and the Bronx River Parkway. AND, it's close to the subway. Those are pretty important factors.
Am here to tell you that Parkchester overall is mainly a working class area, with some middle class people sprinkled about. Keep in mind that your co-op is *outside* of the main part of Parkchester, which is the actual complex where most live. There aren't many areas of the Bronx like that so it is unique in that regard. Most are either dirt poor or solidly middle class or upper middle to upper class like Riverdale. Am thinking TJ's *might* do well. However you do have some ratchet types there. Am thinking as rents increase further, may see more people with higher incomes arrive to further solidify your argument.
You OBVIOUSLY do not know Queens at all. The Trader Joe's in Queens is in Woodhaven. That's a pretty non-aspirational location of old time blue-collar white people. (Just the kind of people who stereo-typically would NOT eat healthy food.) Woodhaven is not exactly the bastion of progressiveness. It's there because relatively to the rest of Queens, the land is cheap. I consider that neighborhood no mans land. It's in the middle of nowhere, just like the Home Depot there, the Sport's Authority there couldn't stay in business so it was replace by a Dick's. (Terrible store!) The only draw to the area is the TJs, the Michael's and Home Depot. Otherwise, there is no reason to go that part of town, ever.
With all due respect, if you believe this, then your standards for food are somewhat low bar. The majority of neighborhoods have a few good ethnic restaurants (from whatever the majority of the area is), and that's it. The rest are pretty poor quality and not worth eating in. I won't eat Chinese anywhere other than Elmhurst, Flushing and some parts of Chinatown. It's rare to find a quality Chinese place outside of those areas.
Let me ask you. Do you think C-towns and Associateds have good quality food? (they have horrible food.) If you do, that informs your opinion about TJs.
How would you know? You have already been informed that this axiom is untrue. Why do you think it's priced like Whole Foods? It's CHEAPER than my local Stop and Shop. How more competitive do you need to be? If people can afford to take the Express bus to work every day, they can afford to spend the prices in an average costing supermarket.
Neither do the local supermarkets in almost EVERY neighborhood in NYC, unless you are in a heavy, heavy yuppie neighborhood. And those are rarer than not.
Affordable and crappy take out? I'd eat Trader Joe's over 90% of the take-out places in Ridgewood because the food sucks at those restaurants and I am not willing to pay that much for crappy food. Only in the past two years is there anything worth eating in the hood, and that was because of the millennials moving in. However, eating out for one, vs. eating out for more than one, is also not worth it. I'm not going to spend $40 on a ok restaurant for my daughter and me when I can eat at home, have it taste better, have left overs and not be concerned about my kid snubbing her nose at it.
But there housebrand is taste tested. They do not carry any item. If it doesn't taste good, it isn't carries. It does not have the stigma of no-frills because it is quality products. Now I have bought things at Whole Foods on occasion. I can't say the same thing about them. There food is often under seasoned and bland.
Ah, as I see it, you think Parkchester is bottom of the barrel in terms of income consumption ratio. It's not a wealthy area, but School teachers, Nurses, Law Enforcement, Computer Analyst, Architecture and Engineering, Business and Financial management do have some money to spend. It's unfortunate that these SOLID professions have been priced out of most of the the rest of the city, but that is not a reflection on them, but NYC politics and the oligarchs in charge.
I think you are operating out of some sort of bias, not based on the actual demographics.
Also, you have completely discounted the landscape and geography of the area. It's an area with a ton of big box brands; Macy's, NY & Co, Boltons, Sleepy's, Duane Reade, Starbucks etc. It's right off both the Cross Bronx Expressway, and the Bronx River Parkway. AND, it's close to the subway. Those are pretty important factors.
Am here to tell you that Parkchester overall is mainly a working class area, with some middle class people sprinkled about. Keep in mind that your co-op is *outside* of the main part of Parkchester, which is the actual complex where most live. There aren't many areas of the Bronx like that so it is unique in that regard. Most are either dirt poor or solidly middle class or upper middle to upper class like Riverdale. Am thinking TJ's *might* do well. However you do have some ratchet types there. Am thinking as rents increase further, may see more people with higher incomes arrive to further solidify your argument.
I agree with that assessment. Fiven that the complex is a Condo, with some renters sprinkled, and where I will be moving is 100% owned, and that would be over 100 apartments, there is definitely a market.
I will point out the TJ's in Woodhaven is not such a great area both in terms of education or income. It working class, especially in mindset. But TJs doesn't serve ONLY that community. People go to it, from all over Queens because it is right off the highway. But everyone I know who lives in Queens doesn't seem to mind that it is NO WHERE near where they live. They go there.
It's poorly served because the parking lot right in front of it, barely has enough space to handle one store, let alone it, and Michael's. If you want to park, you have to park behind it, or at Home Depot and walk really, really far.
So unless TJ's is planted in a neighborhood where people fear to go, it will likely do well.
I say this on my summer Friday off, eating a hand-made omelet, with fresh mozzarella cheese, fresh sage, and prosciutto. This is what I consider quick food.
Yes. It's mostly a white neighborhood of people that similarly would fit in in Bensonhurst back in the day, but with less money. Glendale is similar but they have a little more money and slightly more diversity. It's kind of Archie Bunker land unless it has dramatically changed. I wouldn't want to live there because I never aligned with that point of view.
I agree with that assessment. Fiven that the complex is a Condo, with some renters sprinkled, and where I will be moving is 100% owned, and that would be over 100 apartments, there is definitely a market.
I will point out the TJ's in Woodhaven is not such a great area both in terms of education or income. It working class, especially in mindset. But TJs doesn't serve ONLY that community. People go to it, from all over Queens because it is right off the highway. But everyone I know who lives in Queens doesn't seem to mind that it is NO WHERE near where they live. They go there.
It's poorly served because the parking lot right in front of it, barely has enough space to handle one store, let alone it, and Michael's. If you want to park, you have to park behind it, or at Home Depot and walk really, really far.
So unless TJ's is planted in a neighborhood where people fear to go, it will likely do well.
I say this on my summer Friday off, eating a hand-made omelet, with fresh mozzarella cheese, fresh sage, and prosciutto. This is what I consider quick food.
Again, am wondering where a TJ's would go if put in Parkchester?
Yes. It's mostly a white neighborhood of people that similarly would fit in in Bensonhurst back in the day, but with less money. Glendale is similar but they have a little more money and slightly more diversity. It's kind of Archie Bunker land unless it has dramatically changed. I wouldn't want to live there because I never aligned with that point of view.
I thought Woodhaven these days was mostly Hispanics, Guyanese, Asians, and Eastern Europeans, not Howard Beach type white people.
There really aren't any Archie Bunker neighborhoods left that aren't on the fringes of the city and suburban.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
