Selling without a Certificate of Occupancy (CO) (Accord: sales, apartments)

[wisescorpiogirl]

Hi all,

I have a question regarding selling without CO.
We've been living in a condo (for 6 years) that was sold under a temp CO and none of our efforts are resulting in us getting the certificate of occupancy. We've (condo association) even hired a lawyer but we are not getting anywhere and it could drag for many more years and result in lots of additional fees. I've heard from people that if you have a buyer who is willing to pay cash then somehow you can arrange a sale. I understand that the price will not be the same if we were selling with the CO, but we are getting pretty desperate. We are a family of 3 now and live in a tiny 1 bedroom, and really need to find a bigger place.
Our other option is to rent out our unit and rent a bigger place for ourselves (but we would be looking at adding money into our own place to cover all costs (maintenance, taxes, lawyer fees, etc)).
Jokingly we've even talked about picking one of the apartments to go to foreclosure and then get the bank to get the CO for us.

So my questions are:
How do you go about selling without a CO (if that is even possible).
Is that legal?
If we were to sell this way what would be the percentage that we would actually get? Would it be 50, 70, 85 % of the regular market value (same unit but with CO)?

[vincentnyc]

sorry, why do u need a CO for? when u buy a house or a condo, i never heard that u will need a CO? CO to prove what? that u own the property? don't u just need the title of the house and that's it?

[Henna]

I know of a building in Williamsburg that according to my friend who lives there (and owns a unit) does not have a C of O. She has owned her unit since 1990. I checked propertyshark and I do see 2 sales in the building from 2004 and they are around $600K and $700K which doesn't seem too far off from market.

So clearly people are buying and selling without c of o's. This particular bldg is in a very HOT location, it's a loft condo - very desirable, which could account for the high market price and people being willing to look the other way if there's no c of o.

[SeventhFloor]

sometimes the bank requests you have a C of O.....you dont need one to sell, however you'll prolly make more money with one than without one.

you need a licensed architect in order to obtain the C of O.

[wisescorpiogirl]

Originally Posted by vincentnyc

sorry, why do u need a CO for? when u buy a house or a condo, i never heard that u will need a CO? CO to prove what? that u own the property? don't u just need the title of the house and that's it?

I believe that all banks require to have a CO in order for them issue a mortage and close on the property.
What I've heard is that if we were to find a buyer willing to pay cash (meaning not going through banks to obtain the money) we could probably do it. But it means that we will have to take a hit money wise. So I'm trying to figure out what percentage it would be if we were to go with the all cash option. I also wanted to figure out if that is even legal to reassign property to somebody else without the CO. I mean obviously everything would be discosed (all the details about ongoing issues, and the lack of CO, etc.).

[wisescorpiogirl]

Originally Posted by Henna

I know of a building in Williamsburg that according to my friend who lives there (and owns a unit) does not have a C of O. She has owned her unit since 1990. I checked propertyshark and I do see 2 sales in the building from 2004 and they are around $600K and $700K which doesn't seem too far off from market.

So clearly people are buying and selling without c of o's. This particular bldg is in a very HOT location, it's a loft condo - very desirable, which could account for the high market price and people being willing to look the other way if there's no c of o.

What I find interesting is that the amounts from those sales are actually posted. If there was no CO, then they could not have gone through the bank to get the loan. And if they were going with the all-cash option, then how did the website obtain that amount? I would guess that when you transfer the title you don't really mention the amount that exchanged hands. I've never purchased or sold any properties so I'm not familiar with any of the processes. This property was purchased by my husband before we even knew each other. Ironically enough everyone who lives in our building are all first time buyers :/

[zolotko]

Originally Posted by wisescorpiogirl

Hi all,

I have a question regarding selling without CO.
We've been living in a condo (for 6 years) that was sold under a temp CO and none of our efforts are resulting in us getting the certificate of occupancy. We've (condo association) even hired a lawyer but we are not getting anywhere and it could drag for many more years and result in lots of additional fees. I've heard from people that if you have a buyer who is willing to pay cash then somehow you can arrange a sale. I understand that the price will not be the same if we were selling with the CO, but we are getting pretty desperate. We are a family of 3 now and live in a tiny 1 bedroom, and really need to find a bigger place.
Our other option is to rent out our unit and rent a bigger place for ourselves (but we would be looking at adding money into our own place to cover all costs (maintenance, taxes, lawyer fees, etc)).
Jokingly we've even talked about picking one of the apartments to go to foreclosure and then get the bank to get the CO for us.

So my questions are:
How do you go about selling without a CO (if that is even possible).
Is that legal?
If we were to sell this way what would be the percentage that we would actually get? Would it be 50, 70, 85 % of the regular market value (same unit but with CO)?

According to DOB if your building is built before 1938, it is not required to have a c of o. All other buildings must have C of O. DOB says that it is an "owner's legal obligation to make sure that the building obtains the final CO (C of O)".

Temporary C of O is given in the event when DOB feels that a building is pretty much ready for occupancy, only minor adjustments have to be made. No C of O means that the building is not in compliance and there could be violations.

If an inspector wants to site you for something (give you a ticket) they always check among other things occupancy of the building. Let's say, they see illegally parked cars on the lot or next to the building. They will check whether it is allowed by the Zonning Code. As soon as they see that there is no C of O and people are occupying the building (which is in their eyes illegal) they may site the building for that. The owner(s) will have to pay the fine.

Your best bet, if you haven't done so, is to hire a licenced and bonded architect and an engineer so they could determine how to bring the building up to the standard. If they had been in a business for a while they should advice you how to proceed. They will also check building codes and zoning resolutions.

So, to answer your question, it is the legal responsibility of the landlord to present the CO.
You can not know how much of a discounted offer you are going to get. There is no rule of thumb. Most of the people would probably stay away from a situation like this. Would you want to inherit somebody else's problem especially when there are so many other properties to choose from in this day and age? Sorry. Be ready for a heavy discount, if someone will decide to take a risk. Any person considering a property "with a cloud" knows that they are inheriting a "cloud" that they will have to deal with sooner or later.
Attorney's responsibility is to stretch the deal as much as possible. Architect and an engineer are usually on a fixed basis and if they are good they can tell you right from the start what has to be done.

Good luck!

[zolotko]

Originally Posted by wisescorpiogirl

What I find interesting is that the amounts from those sales are actually posted. If there was no CO, then they could not have gone through the bank to get the loan. And if they were going with the all-cash option, then how did the website obtain that amount? I would guess that when you transfer the title you don't really mention the amount that exchanged hands. I've never purchased or sold any properties so I'm not familiar with any of the processes. This property was purchased by my husband before we even knew each other. Ironically enough everyone who lives in our building are all first time buyers :/

The bank asks for C of O with an application package. You are right, the bank would not give the money without such an important document. It is the same thing as the appraisal, bank's assurance not to lend more than the property's value in the eyes of an independent professional. Just because someone says the property worth X dollars doesn't mean anything. C of O is the bank assurance that the property is in safe condition for the people who will live in the building and the neighbors. Just because someone lives in the building or sees it livable, doesn't mean it is. Bank needs assurance. City department needs assurance as well, or they may site you sooner or later.

[wisescorpiogirl]

Zolotko,

Any idea if we can involve our bank to deal with this? Or can this backfire?
I know our mortgage was sold to a much bigger (national) bank, would they be able to advise and/or assist?

[Henna]

Originally Posted by wisescorpiogirl

What I find interesting is that the amounts from those sales are actually posted. If there was no CO, then they could not have gone through the bank to get the loan. And if they were going with the all-cash option, then how did the website obtain that amount? I would guess that when you transfer the title you don't really mention the amount that exchanged hands. I've never purchased or sold any properties so I'm not familiar with any of the processes. This property was purchased by my husband before we even knew each other. Ironically enough everyone who lives in our building are all first time buyers :/

I'm quite sure that mortgage info is not the only way to get closing prices of properties in NYC. Many deals are all-cash, yet ALL sales are recorded. I don't know the ins and outs, but aren't there all sorts of city and state agencies that would have to know the sales price for tax reasons, etc?