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Old 07-22-2017, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,129 posts, read 26,407,309 times
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Back a few years ago when they were touting the wonders of the coming Second Avenue Subway I read that the stations would include "air cooling." I thought this was an odd way of avoiding a commitment to air conditioning and perhaps meant only air movement by fans, not great when outdoor temps are in the 90's like this week.
This has perplexed me because I never noticed much "air cooling" until yesterday.


We had an immense buffet lunch at Andaz and walked/crawled to the 72nd Street subway entrance (2nd Ave) and half way down the escalator the temperature dropped to comfortable (street level was blistering hot.) Platform was downright pleasant. We thought maybe 72nd was an anomaly. But the same was noted at 96th St.


I know there is often a cooling effect when you descend into the bowels of the Earth and 72nd Street Station is quite deep...96th not so deep.
But this was a distinctly different level of cooling.

Does anyone have any more info on this than I? Are they using air chillers of some sort on these new stations for the most beastly hot days?
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Old 07-22-2017, 10:27 AM
 
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It's a new station and it takes years for the heat to build up like it has done in the other stations. I don't know the specifics of how the station was designed but if they don't vent it sufficiently it will get hotter over time. Most subway stations use passive cooling (the trains push the air through) and that won't be enough in the long run.
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Old 07-22-2017, 11:15 AM
 
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These stations are deep underground (relatively speaking) and benefits from passive geothermal cooling and heating. Unlike the air, subsurface ground temperatures remain relatively stable year round, providing a cooling affect in the summer and a heating affect in the winter. Older stations are either much too close to surface for this happen, or have poorly designed ventilation systems that don’t take advantage of this phenomenon. These stations were specifically designed to prevent too much direct air circulation between the surface and the station, the air that is pumped in is probably chilled or heated to match the temperature within the station.
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Old 07-22-2017, 12:02 PM
 
Location: New York City
7,125 posts, read 5,493,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astorian31 View Post
These stations are deep underground (relatively speaking) and benefits from passive geothermal cooling and heating. Unlike the air, subsurface ground temperatures remain relatively stable year round, providing a cooling affect in the summer and a heating affect in the winter. Older stations are either much too close to surface for this happen, or have poorly designed ventilation systems that donít take advantage of this phenomenon. These stations were specifically designed to prevent too much direct air circulation between the surface and the station, the air that is pumped in is probably chilled or heated to match the temperature within the station.
That's total bunk

The trains that pull into the three second ave stations are the same IND/BMT trains that run in the rest of the system which are internally air conditioned and externally spew HUGE amounts of heat into the tunnels and stations. There must be some sort of active cooling in the new stations or they would be much hotter
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Old 07-22-2017, 12:28 PM
 
Location: New York, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeJones View Post
That's total bunk

The trains that pull into the three second ave stations are the same IND/BMT trains that run in the rest of the system which are internally air conditioned and externally spew HUGE amounts of heat into the tunnels and stations. There must be some sort of active cooling in the new stations or they would be much hotter
Heard on the news that yes, new stations had HVAC system that was to be turned on soon. Likely explains the cooling.
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:22 PM
 
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Just as with all deep tunnels (think Holland, Lincoln, Battery, Hudson River, etc...) the SAS "new" stations on UES have a powerful ventilation system. There is also an air conditioning system which IIRC was only recently activated.


Brand-New Second Avenue Subway Stations Swelter, Despite MTA Promise of Climate Control | NBC New York


If you notice unlike other subway lines (IRC, BMT, etc...) in Manhattan the SAS new stations do not have ventilation grates along sidewalks. Air is brought down and circulated via vans. That plus the depth accounts for some of the coolness (think tombs, graves, and other things below ground), but only works to a point.


Remember trains themselves create heat (more so now that all have AC systems), and then you have people/passengers. Without some sort of ventilation (forced or natural) air down there would be stagnant and laden with fumes.
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:27 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Without some sort of ventilation (forced or natural) air down there would be stagnant and laden with fumes.
Fumes from where, it's an all electric system except for the maintenance diesel locomotives

People would run out of oxygen though
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeJones View Post
Fumes from where, it's an all electric system except for the maintenance diesel locomotives

People would run out of oxygen though
Even though the trains are electric you do have "fumes" given off by the AC process, metal against metal (subway tires against tracks when braking and so forth).


You also have various particulate matter/dust that comes from the operation of trains.


Air pollution in subways is worse than you think | New York Post


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3155846/


Saving grace of the new SAS stations is again they do not have ventilation grates from street. If they did then things would be like the rest of the NYC subway underground system; particulate matter/dust/soot and other airborne solids would settle out and be "sucked" into the system.


Have not ever noticed how grimy and dirty the walls, tracks and so forth are of subway system?
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:03 PM
 
852 posts, read 809,711 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeJones View Post
That's total bunk

The trains that pull into the three second ave stations are the same IND/BMT trains that run in the rest of the system which are internally air conditioned and externally spew HUGE amounts of heat into the tunnels and stations. There must be some sort of active cooling in the new stations or they would be much hotter
I didnít say that it was solely passive heating/cooling. I just said thatís what makes it easy to effectively cool the station. You could never install HVAC on the stations close to the ground. It would just be cost prohibitive
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:07 PM
 
Location: SC
8,382 posts, read 5,021,700 times
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In every system I have been in, the subway stations are naturally cooled and need no extra equipment other than the ventilation for fresh air in some stations. It is probably 10-15 degrees cooler underground than it is on the surface.

Edit:

A little research shows that many of the stations are indeed hot in NYC. Not sure why that would be with the system being so far underground. It should have a cave effect down there.

Last edited by blktoptrvl; 07-22-2017 at 03:17 PM..
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