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Old 07-24-2017, 05:30 PM
 
751 posts, read 661,749 times
Reputation: 1292

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeJones View Post
If that were true no president would ever get anything done. No, rather he can't pass any legislation because when all is said and done he lacks leadership and true dealmaking skill to get his anyone on board let alone his own party which has majority. He is completely blowing his golden opportunity that fell into his lap because he's incompetent
The potus is one of the best negotiators in corporate America. Have you ever read any of his books? You are an obvious troll and not very good at it.
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Old 07-24-2017, 06:33 PM
 
Location: New York City
7,125 posts, read 5,493,619 times
Reputation: 4875
Quote:
Originally Posted by ughhnyc View Post
The potus is one of the best negotiators in corporate America. Have you ever read any of his books? You are an obvious troll and not very good at it.
I'm so confused lol

Are you trying to say with a straight face that Donald J. Trump is a good negotiator? He's not well respected in corporate America, but that's not saying much since most real estate developers aren't generally well regarded. I think he has some skills in RE development but when it comes to consensus building and leading/negotiating in a broader scope he's been pretty terrible so far
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Old 07-24-2017, 06:46 PM
 
3,447 posts, read 3,513,903 times
Reputation: 3079
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Dale View Post
So just let it continue to be unaffordable? Whether universal or not? How does making a service uniform make it more affordable other then rationing from those that can afford it or from the provider?
Adding more people to the insurance rolls without them contributing fiscally has made it more expensive for the middle class who was previously enjoying (what now seems like) moderate rates.

A single payer government sponsored system can bring the costs of medical procedures down- but would also completely destroy an entire industry of medical billing and insurance provisions. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, just something to note. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are employed because of the systems we use.

Other factors are touchy too.
Our medical personnel are flat out paid better than most of the rest of the world.
We have the majority of the best medical treatment centers, doctors, and medicines in the entire world.

... at a price.


Unfortunately, while other countries can price fix medication costs- a huge majority are being imported from US medicine companies. They sell at a loss in the developing world making up the profit margins they wish here in the USA where they were developed.

There's no easy fair fix for that- other than to demand that those other countries help fund our research here. Gilead themselves have said on record...

Gilead: We are unapologetic about getting a patent. Without patent protection there is no motivation to seek therapies for certain diseases. I do think many companies abuse their patents. But if we are responsible in our pricing then I think it is fair.


The summation is the medical industry is certainly a business.
It isn't one people seem to want to budget for, and in the case of 1/3rd of New Yorkers- simply something they aren't attempting to pay for.


If there is a fixed amount of medical care we can efficiently administer- some people are going to receive it, and some are not.
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Old 07-24-2017, 06:49 PM
 
3,447 posts, read 3,513,903 times
Reputation: 3079
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeJones View Post
I'm so confused lol

Are you trying to say with a straight face that Donald J. Trump is a good negotiator? He's not well respected in corporate America, but that's not saying much since most real estate developers aren't generally well regarded. I think he has some skills in RE development but when it comes to consensus building and leading/negotiating in a broader scope he's been pretty terrible so far
No particular political stance here- but just a comment that negotiating this ACA/medical plan bill is completely different than actual business negotiation.

Our Congress personally has nothing to gain or lose. Their insurance is still carte blanche and still paid for regardless of what they choose. So how can your organizational leader even 'really' negotiate?
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:44 PM
 
9,882 posts, read 7,676,937 times
Reputation: 4673
Quote:
Originally Posted by WithDisp View Post
Adding more people to the insurance rolls without them contributing fiscally has made it more expensive for the middle class who was previously enjoying (what now seems like) moderate rates.

A single payer government sponsored system can bring the costs of medical procedures down- but would also completely destroy an entire industry of medical billing and insurance provisions. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, just something to note. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are employed because of the systems we use.

Other factors are touchy too.
Our medical personnel are flat out paid better than most of the rest of the world.
We have the majority of the best medical treatment centers, doctors, and medicines in the entire world.

... at a price.


Unfortunately, while other countries can price fix medication costs- a huge majority are being imported from US medicine companies. They sell at a loss in the developing world making up the profit margins they wish here in the USA where they were developed.

There's no easy fair fix for that- other than to demand that those other countries help fund our research here. Gilead themselves have said on record...

Gilead: We are unapologetic about getting a patent. Without patent protection there is no motivation to seek therapies for certain diseases. I do think many companies abuse their patents. But if we are responsible in our pricing then I think it is fair.


The summation is the medical industry is certainly a business.
It isn't one people seem to want to budget for, and in the case of 1/3rd of New Yorkers- simply something they aren't attempting to pay for.


If there is a fixed amount of medical care we can efficiently administer- some people are going to receive it, and some are not.
How exactly is a single payer systen going to bring costs down? What makes you think it'll stop at only killing off the practice of billing and provisioning? No billing and provisioning sounds like lack of transparency. Maybe in attempt to hide something (i.e., costs). Sounds like a charade.

Thanks for all the information.
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:18 PM
 
6,909 posts, read 9,028,891 times
Reputation: 2856
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Dale View Post
So just let it continue to be unaffordable? Whether universal or not? How does making a service uniform make it more affordable other then rationing from those that can afford it or from the provider?
It will continue to be unaffordable whether you let it or dont, which is why all forms of universal health care will be an act of redistribution from haves to have less. If you are sincerely for universal health care, you have no choice but to accept this. If you cannot stand redistribution, then universal healthcare will alwaus be unacceptable to you.
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:44 PM
 
751 posts, read 661,749 times
Reputation: 1292
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeJones View Post
I'm so confused lol

Are you trying to say with a straight face that Donald J. Trump is a good negotiator? He's not well respected in corporate America, but that's not saying much since most real estate developers aren't generally well regarded. I think he has some skills in RE development but when it comes to consensus building and leading/negotiating in a broader scope he's been pretty terrible so far
oh really? please cite some examples then. give details.
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Old 07-24-2017, 10:05 PM
 
3,447 posts, read 3,513,903 times
Reputation: 3079
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Dale View Post
How exactly is a single payer systen going to bring costs down? What makes you think it'll stop at only killing off the practice of billing and provisioning? No billing and provisioning sounds like lack of transparency. Maybe in attempt to hide something (i.e., costs). Sounds like a charade.

Thanks for all the information.
In single payer-

A. ) Insurance companies do not exist as middle men. They take no part of the profit.
B. ) All services (rightfully) billed to the gov't will be paid. No collections, no costly follow up.
C. ) Streamlined forms and entry process. No need for policy checks, all insurance is identical.
D. ) Government sets maximum amounts for procedures/meds. This can raise some costs but lower others, ultimately gives government full bargaining ability.

Yes, there is still opportunities for abuse- not an incredible amount more than we have now.
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Old 07-25-2017, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
20,129 posts, read 26,407,309 times
Reputation: 9021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest_Hills_Daddy View Post
If HC were affordable for everyone, then nobody would be thinking of making it universal. That is the root cause. It is simply not affordable.

Then Health Care must be MADE affordable, universal and government run. If it requires wage and price controls, then so be it. If pharmaceutical companies must be brought to heel than, so be it. If extraordinary, heroic and expensive procedures must be limited or eliminated, then so be it. And a given: If Health Insurance companies are driven to ruin, then so be it.


Other countries have PROVEN that health care better than ours can be delivered to all AFFORDABLY.

We can do the same if we break up the cartel-style collusion between medical providers and government.

Last edited by Kefir King; 07-25-2017 at 06:14 AM..
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:30 AM
 
9,882 posts, read 7,676,937 times
Reputation: 4673
Quote:
Originally Posted by WithDisp View Post
In single payer-

A. ) Insurance companies do not exist as middle men. They take no part of the profit.
B. ) All services (rightfully) billed to the gov't will be paid. No collections, no costly follow up.
C. ) Streamlined forms and entry process. No need for policy checks, all insurance is identical.
D. ) Government sets maximum amounts for procedures/meds. This can raise some costs but lower others, ultimately gives government full bargaining ability.

Yes, there is still opportunities for abuse- not an incredible amount more than we have now.
(A) should be brought in-house. You cannot ignore the need to provision and reserve. If you are to do away with the insurance and reinsurance companies then you need to build it into the Office of the Actuary, which will require complete political independence and possibly a line into the FRB.

(B) I question whether the government will actually be able to pay its bills. They like interest-free loans. Part of the reason why in (A) I stress political independence.

(C) It would be nice if some flexibility or options of coverage could be provided at a cost. Everything can't be plain-vanilla. We all have different needs and requirements. People should have the ability to pay more for add-on coverage if they like.

(D) will lead to rationing and decreased innovation. This will lead to a negative global effect. Perhaps this ends up topping out life expectancies, and bucks the trend.
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