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Old 07-27-2017, 08:29 PM
 
23,265 posts, read 16,114,118 times
Reputation: 8543

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4567 View Post
Wow! Way to generalize! I'm a solid middle income tenant with an advanced degree at 535 Carlton. And thank God those of us here are building community and talking to each other and helping each other. You sound like a ****ty racist person. I'm happy to be living in a mixed income building and hope all the tenants in this building can use this to move forward with their lives. And FYI people of all classes and levels of wealth are smoking and enjoying pot all over this city. Maybe a hit or two would mellow you out.
A hit or two combined with some HOT sex.

He may need a little more than a hit or two of pot.

These angry, old miserable types are drunks. Booze has a different affect.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:55 PM
 
3,700 posts, read 2,497,966 times
Reputation: 2614
quote:
You sound like a ****ty racist person.

I'm sorry, WHAT? Name one thing I have said that is racist. But I am very happy you are middle income with an advanced degree and won an apartment. GO YOU! But it's a terrible look to go around calling people racist because of your own hang-ups.

EDITED to add:

i think it should be a criminal offense to accuse someone of being racist in our current climate. How dare you. Just because you can't counteract anything people say in a legit manner you resort to accusing people of that? disgusting.
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Old 07-28-2017, 05:23 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
1,074 posts, read 496,083 times
Reputation: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
- All newly built housing should automatically place limits on income; that is allocate x% to poor, x% to middle class (and definite the middle class perhaps in two tiers because there is a huge difference between $40K, $75K and $120K.)

Why should ALL of these new developments have people from different income bands live together? Probably wouldn't be feasible in ALL cases too because of the size of the project or type, i.e., preservation as opposed to new construction.
- Place heavy penalties on apartments bought or rented by people who are not living in NYC for at least 50% of the year. Why should their be housing scarcity while apartments remain unoccupied.

The problem is that you would need the state and I doubt they are willing to forego the properties taxes from these wealthy individuals (mainly foreigners) who park there money here. Also, the Feds know that there is a lot of money laundering happening here in our housing market but have only taken modest steps to combat it
- Means test subsidized housing so that people can't take advantage of these subsidies when they actually would no longer qualify, and haven't qualified for 20 years.
This I agree with 100% but others like Seventhfloor, stormgal and others believe it's there right to still have RS housing because they or their family stuck it out in NYC through the bad times. I don't understand how it is fair for me to be making over $100,000 and I'm living in a dirt cheap RS apt while you have other deserving folks.
- Do not give tax incentives to housing developments allocated to the wealthy. Do not give tax incentives to hold-outs who won't rent/sell until they can get the price they want, even if it goes unoccupied for years. If there is a housing shortage and your property is not fillable after six months, the price is too high.
Absolutely makes zero sense. If it wasn't for the wealthy there wouldn't be some many projects
- Build large Single Occupancy communities with shared ameneties. I know a long of young people who really would prefer not to have roommates, but they have no place else to live. Call it what you will, sort of luxury dorm living.
- This will be Politically Incorrect. Get rid of projects. Concentrating all poor people in one place is just bad for poor people and bad for society. Mixed income housing is the most beneficial for everyone, including the wealthy.
See my responses above and please explain why mix income housing is beneficial for everyone.
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Old 07-28-2017, 06:19 AM
 
Location: New York
2,584 posts, read 2,678,738 times
Reputation: 745
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullandre View Post
Why should ALL of these new developments have people from different income bands live together?
Why not? The best way for a peaceful, cohesive community is exposure to other people, other cultures. It's easy to demonize strangers with whom you have zero contact. It's much harder to demonize your neighbor with whom you see taking their kid to school every day. Building a cooperative cohesive society improves society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullandre View Post
The problem is that you would need the state and I doubt they are willing to forego the properties taxes from these wealthy individuals (mainly foreigners) who park there money here. Also, the Feds know that there is a lot of money laundering happening here in our housing market but have only taken modest steps to combat it
Part of the function of government is to do things to protect society as a whole. One might even believe this is its main purpose.

Quote:
This I agree with 100% but others like Seventhfloor, stormgal and others believe it's there right to still have RS housing because they or their family stuck it out in NYC through the bad times. I don't understand how it is fair for me to be making over $100,000 and I'm living in a dirt cheap RS apt while you have other deserving folks.
I believe in means testing, but I know factually that RS does not = dirt cheap. I once lived in a RS apartment in Park Slope. This was back in the late 90s. We had a unrenovated, really crappy condition apartment. The rent was $867. The prevailing rent for a similarly sized apartment, but renovated, in the area at the time was $950. So dirt cheap it was not.

People here on city-data seem to use the terms interchangeably. Rent Controlled are apartments that are dirt cheap, where the rent was frozen in time.

"Less than 2% of NYC apartments are rent-controlled, which means they're in a building built before 1947 and have been occupied by the same family since 1971 (when Nixon was president!). "

Rent Stabilized receive rent increases every few years, receive increases when capital improvement is made, receive rent increases when there is a change of leasees.


Quote:
Absolutely makes zero sense. If it wasn't for the wealthy there wouldn't be some many projects
State a source for that "fact."

One thing is clear about economics. If your property is un rentable/ unsellable for long periods of time, then your asking price is too high. There is no reason to subsidize pie in the sky ideas of what one should receive in terms of rent or sale price.

Quote:
- This will be Politically Incorrect. Get rid of projects. Concentrating all poor people in one place is just bad for poor people and bad for society. Mixed income housing is the most beneficial for everyone, including the wealthy.
Where did I say poor people? I said SINGLE people. Single people don't need three bedroom apartments.
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Old 07-28-2017, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
1,074 posts, read 496,083 times
Reputation: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Why not? The best way for a peaceful, cohesive community is exposure to other people, other cultures. It's easy to demonize strangers with whom you have zero contact. It's much harder to demonize your neighbor with whom you see taking their kid to school every day. Building a cooperative cohesive society improves society.

Again, no one should be forced to live together with other ppl. Where is this evidence about the best way for peaceful cohesive bla bla? You can interact with different groups and get along with them without being neighbors etc.


Part of the function of government is to do things to protect society as a whole. One might even believe this is its main purpose.

Agree with this statement but it's idealistic. Remember NYS gives its residents a lot of freebies that must be paid for somehow. Impose huge penalties will more likely have a chilling effect of tax revenues and the services provided.

I believe in means testing, but I know factually that RS does not = dirt cheap. I once lived in a RS apartment in Park Slope. This was back in the late 90s. We had a unrenovated, really crappy condition apartment. The rent was $867. The prevailing rent for a similarly sized apartment, but renovated, in the area at the time was $950. So dirt cheap it was not.

My statement should be qualified because you're correct that RS doesn't always mean dirt cheap rent. I was referring to people whom I know or read about, that are paying was below market rent despite their income and rent increases.
People here on city-data seem to use the terms interchangeably. Rent Controlled are apartments that are dirt cheap, where the rent was frozen in time.

"Less than 2% of NYC apartments are rent-controlled, which means they're in a building built before 1947 and have been occupied by the same family since 1971 (when Nixon was president!). "

Rent Stabilized receive rent increases every few years, receive increases when capital improvement is made, receive rent increases when there is a change of leasees.



State a source for that "fact."
Who do you think finance these projects? It's wealthy developers and individuals. Without the taxes paid and investment by these ppl there would be far fewer projects. The Feds, local and state incentivize these ppl through a variety of programs. This I know a lot about because when I was in tax at my current Big 4, I worked on a team that was responsible for certifying financial docs as per LIHTC and other tax incentives/programs rules. Nonprofits are involved in some programs but there is a reason why the 421A tax exemption program is the most popular program here.

One thing is clear about economics. If your property is un rentable/ unsellable for long periods of time, then your asking price is too high. There is no reason to subsidize pie in the sky ideas of what one should receive in terms of rent or sale price.

Dont understand where this is coming from or relevant to what I'm discussing.


Where did I say poor people? I said SINGLE people. Single people don't need three bedroom apartments.

I did not say anything about poor people nor did I address your last two points.
Typing on phone from work but see above.
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Old 07-28-2017, 08:09 AM
 
152 posts, read 54,633 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4567 View Post
Wow! Way to generalize! I'm a solid middle income tenant with an advanced degree at 535 Carlton. And thank God those of us here are building community and talking to each other and helping each other. You sound like a ****ty racist person. I'm happy to be living in a mixed income building and hope all the tenants in this building can use this to move forward with their lives. And FYI people of all classes and levels of wealth are smoking and enjoying pot all over this city. Maybe a hit or two would mellow you out.
People are entitled to their opinion, many times opinons are formed because of that persons OWN experience. I have witnessed exactly what this person states but from a different perspective. I also know people who live in a middle income development and they report the same things.

Just because you feel like calling someone a racist does not make it accurate. I did not see it. You can call classism but where did you pull racism from? Why is that always thrown out there when its not even relevant. When you don't have a relevant rebuttal you resort to calling people racist?

I always say the best thing to do is prove those making statements you disagree with WRONG. Cool yall are building a community. Check back in and let us know how it goes. But kindly rethink the racist label. Its overused and misused; and its used by people who just don't like hearing or dealing with the reality of things. Even if its NOT your reality....it might be someone elses and you can't tell them to sit back and enjoy the nonsense.

Whats too bad about all of this is if we were more honest and also started holding people accountable for their actions and dealing with the uncomfortable topics and things that aren't PC (g-d forbid you offend anyone now a days) we might actually accompish things.

Constantly misapplying the race card when it gets uncomfortable for you is the forum equivalent of an enabling parent who sees their kid going down the wrong path, doing drugs, getting in trouble. But rather than face the issue....they enable their kid and make 10 million excuses. Stop making excuses for bad behavior! This crap is getting old real quick. Also bad low life poor neighbors are NOT exclusive to certain groups. Their are ghetto ass peopl of every shade under the sun. Hello City Island and Throggs Neck (yes they are have white low lives.....shocker I know!) And if you took a look the world outside of your New York bubble you would see that.

Also how many of these buildings and developments become a wonderful place? I would love some data. Facts only! Because most of these subsidized or low income housing developments thoughout history seem to decline and become crappy. Most tenants leave the minute they are able to. So please spare me the romanticism and remove your rose colored glasses. The sky is NOT green its BLUE! And NOT everyone can be defined as a racist.

Lastly, just cause you have an advanced degree does not mean you are brilliant either it means you studied and passed. Sounds a bit elitist. And tons of people have degrees but still lack common sense and/or awareness so....
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:10 AM
 
6,845 posts, read 4,448,392 times
Reputation: 7633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Its_Her_CC_Q4 View Post
People are entitled to their opinion, many times opinons are formed because of that persons OWN experience. I have witnessed exactly what this person states but from a different perspective. I also know people who live in a middle income development and they report the same things.

Just because you feel like calling someone a racist does not make it accurate. I did not see it. You can call classism but where did you pull racism from? Why is that always thrown out there when its not even relevant. When you don't have a relevant rebuttal you resort to calling people racist?

I always say the best thing to do is prove those making statements you disagree with WRONG. Cool yall are building a community. Check back in and let us know how it goes. But kindly rethink the racist label. Its overused and misused; and its used by people who just don't like hearing or dealing with the reality of things. Even if its NOT your reality....it might be someone elses and you can't tell them to sit back and enjoy the nonsense.

Whats too bad about all of this is if we were more honest and also started holding people accountable for their actions and dealing with the uncomfortable topics and things that aren't PC (g-d forbid you offend anyone now a days) we might actually accompish things.

Constantly misapplying the race card when it gets uncomfortable for you is the forum equivalent of an enabling parent who sees their kid going down the wrong path, doing drugs, getting in trouble. But rather than face the issue....they enable their kid and make 10 million excuses. Stop making excuses for bad behavior! This crap is getting old real quick. Also bad low life poor neighbors are NOT exclusive to certain groups. Their are ghetto ass peopl of every shade under the sun. Hello City Island and Throggs Neck (yes they are have white low lives.....shocker I know!) And if you took a look the world outside of your New York bubble you would see that.

Also how many of these buildings and developments become a wonderful place? I would love some data. Facts only! Because most of these subsidized or low income housing developments thoughout history seem to decline and become crappy. Most tenants leave the minute they are able to. So please spare me the romanticism and remove your rose colored glasses. The sky is NOT green its BLUE! And NOT everyone can be defined as a racist.

Lastly, just cause you have an advanced degree does not mean you are brilliant either it means you studied and passed. Sounds a bit elitist. And tons of people have degrees but still lack common sense and/or awareness so....
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:39 AM
 
152 posts, read 54,633 times
Reputation: 120
Lol fatality.........hadouken! Hahaha
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:55 AM
 
Location: New York
2,584 posts, read 2,678,738 times
Reputation: 745
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullandre View Post
Typing on phone from work but see above.
I can relate to typing on the phone. It's hard.


Quote:
Again, no one should be forced to live together with other ppl. Where is this evidence about the best way for peaceful cohesive bla bla? You can interact with different groups and get along with them without being neighbors etc.
I won't do a lot of your research for you because this is well documented and I do have things to do with my day, so I will just give you one. But these kinds of studies are well known.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0314135913.htm

Quote:
Agree with this statement but it's idealistic. Remember NYS gives its residents a lot of freebies that must be paid for somehow. Impose huge penalties will more likely have a chilling effect of tax revenues and the services provided.
There are many who enjoy the benefits of our tax structure disproportionately to what they put in. HINT: It isn't the poor and middle-class. Infrastructure, for example costs everyone money. But Infrastructure disproportionately rewards those who own business that utilize that infrastructure for commerce. (And that's only one tiny example.)

Quote:
My statement should be qualified because you're correct that RS doesn't always mean dirt cheap rent. I was referring to people whom I know or read about, that are paying was below market rent despite their income and rent increases.
Is that really a percentage that has an impact?

Quote:
Who do you think finance these projects? It's wealthy developers and individuals. Without the taxes paid and investment by these ppl there would be far fewer projects. The Feds, local and state incentivize these ppl through a variety of programs. This I know a lot about because when I was in tax at my current Big 4, I worked on a team that was responsible for certifying financial docs as per LIHTC and other tax incentives/programs rules. Nonprofits are involved in some programs but there is a reason why the 421A tax exemption program is the most popular program here.
That's one side of it. I read a very interesting article about this stuff (and the whole history) this morning. Imagine a property that is worth $10 million in tax revenue. A property is built on it that makes it worth $200 million in tax revenue. The builder and stake holders make an agreement with the city to house 421a units for the next 20 years. However, the deal also allows them to pay taxes only at the $10 million value, not at the value that it has become after the construction. Seems like a pretty good deal for them. They spend pennies so they can avoid paying millions. Do you believe they would agree to these things if it weren't good for them? They don't. People are selfish.

here's the article. It's long but very, very good. Tenants Under Siege: Inside New*York City

Quote:
Dont understand where this is coming from or relevant to what I'm discussing.
It was about my original comment where I said that there should not be a tax incentive to keeping a property vacant for lengthy period of time. Claiming a loss in a perfectly rentable property for years at a time should not be legal. If you can't rent a commercial property in a year, then the reason is almost always because you want more than the property is worth. Why should that be rewarded? Whatever happened to supply and demand economics?
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Old 07-28-2017, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
1,074 posts, read 496,083 times
Reputation: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
I can relate to typing on the phone. It's hard.



I won't do a lot of your research for you because this is well documented and I do have things to do with my day, so I will just give you one. But these kinds of studies are well known.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0314135913.htm



There are many who enjoy the benefits of our tax structure disproportionately to what they put in. HINT: It isn't the poor and middle-class. Infrastructure, for example costs everyone money. But Infrastructure disproportionately rewards those who own business that utilize that infrastructure for commerce. (And that's only one tiny example.)

Businesses in NY are already heavily taxed, so ure solution is more taxes and regulations? Probably a start would be to wean ppl off govt services, more public-private partnerships etc. No easy solutions.



Is that really a percentage that has an impact?

Overall no but it should be a part of reforming the system. If you can afford market rate, then give up your subsidized unit to those in greater need.



That's one side of it. I read a very interesting article about this stuff (and the whole history) this morning. Imagine a property that is worth $10 million in tax revenue. A property is built on it that makes it worth $200 million in tax revenue. The builder and stake holders make an agreement with the city to house 421a units for the next 20 years. However, the deal also allows them to pay taxes only at the $10 million value, not at the value that it has become after the construction. Seems like a pretty good deal for them. They spend pennies so they can avoid paying millions. Do you believe they would agree to these things if it weren't good for them? They don't. People are selfish.

here's the article. It's long but very, very good. Tenants Under Siege: Inside New*York City

The 421A program disproportionately benefits sponsors/developers/investors but the City and its residents benefit a lot as well. Yes, the program should be reformed but let's be honest, without these incentives there wouldn't be as much new housing here. Probably incentives are less needed now as opposed to the 80s but they did spark this massive building spree. Aren't we all selfish? Sponsors and developers seek to maximize profit for their investors. Why would they altruistically take part in these projects if it wasn't a good deal for them?

I can guarantee you that Developers do not spend "pennies" to receive millions in tax exemptions, abatements or zoning changes. Again, I used to certify and review underwriting docs and while the City loses a substantial amount in tax revenue, these projects are expensive and heavily leveraged. Investors and creditors have to be repaid, building costs and land are expensive.

Again, the program should be reformed


It was about my original comment where I said that there should not be a tax incentive to keeping a property vacant for lengthy period of time. Claiming a loss in a perfectly rentable property for years at a time should not be legal. If you can't rent a commercial property in a year, then the reason is almost always because you want more than the property is worth. Why should that be rewarded? Whatever happened to supply and demand economics?
Please educate me about this tax incentive that rewards owners for keeping properties vacant? I think these vacancies are about pure speculation (which I think you refer to) my friend because IRS and DTF rules would disallow most of these deductions.
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