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Old 11-30-2009, 06:53 PM
 
1,257 posts, read 1,098,894 times
Reputation: 358
Overall an interesting and well balanced article, I did for a while believe that gentrification was more of a class issue than a racial one, solidarity among races isn't nearly as clear cut as people think it to be (There are suprising divisions in Latino communites for example).

Unless there is hardcore balkanization (which may occur if the city doesn't get real estate in check), I think there will be more meshing and creation of community over a period of time. Newcomers have ALWAYS drawn the ire of old timers (irish/italian catholics vs. german/english protestants).

 
Old 11-30-2009, 08:27 PM
 
461 posts, read 1,092,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie Jenkins View Post
Bensonhurst IS for Italians, Chinatown IS for Chinese (let it be called Chinatown). I'm sorry but what do you expect from a neighborhood with streets named Malcolm X Blvd. & Frederick Douglass Blvd.? At the end of the day, once you look beyond the condos, the bogus coffee shops and restaurants, the white yuppies etc. Harlem is Harlem - an African American cultural mecca.

Pookie, you are simply looking out for your own kind (black people) with those bias and borderline racist comments.

You fail to realize that there is an unfair double standard black people want.

And what I mean by that is that while you or (black people in general) push and advocate to preserve black neighborhoods like Harlem or Bed-Stuy, at the same time (reading older post of yours) you are the type to complain and advocate about there NOT being enough black people in white neighborhoods like Bensonhurst for example and demand change.

So my question to you is... why is it ok for black people to preserve their black neighborhoods but NOT ok for white people to preserve their white neighborhoods without black people complaining and pulling the usual race card?

BTW...I'm a Latino from the Bronx, and if my people did the same thing, I'd tell them the same thing I just told you. People should have thee freedom to live anywhere they want.
 
Old 11-30-2009, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,060 posts, read 18,449,242 times
Reputation: 10077
^Especially since neighborhoods have been changing since Day One. Harlem wasn't always a black neighborhood, just as Bensonhurst wasn't always Italian.

Using street names as an argument is just plain ridiculous; they can (and will) be changed eventually. Do you realize that Wilson Avenue in Bushwick used to be called Hamburg--that part of the city had been heavily German since a group of Hessian mercenaries decided not to return to Europe after the Revolution?

I think Pookie just doesn't want to see change in Harlem...which is kind of like demanding that the tide not recede.
 
Old 12-01-2009, 12:20 AM
 
Location: Bed-stuy/Clinton Hill
952 posts, read 1,275,187 times
Reputation: 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorfox View Post
Pookie, you are simply looking out for your own kind (black people) with those bias and borderline racist comments.

You fail to realize that there is an unfair double standard black people want.

And what I mean by that is that while you or (black people in general) push and advocate to preserve black neighborhoods like Harlem or Bed-Stuy, at the same time (reading older post of yours) you are the type to complain and advocate about there NOT being enough black people in white neighborhoods like Bensonhurst for example and demand change.

So my question to you is... why is it ok for black people to preserve their black neighborhoods but NOT ok for white people to preserve their white neighborhoods without black people complaining and pulling the usual race card?

BTW...I'm a Latino from the Bronx, and if my people did the same thing, I'd tell them the same thing I just told you. People should have thee freedom to live anywhere they want.
Well while I don't exactly agree with keeping a neighborhood all black for the sake of it, I do have to say that the dynamics that made black and latino neighborhoods "black and latino" are different from what made "white" neighborhoods white. Blacks and hispanics were virtually assigned to their neighborhoods through segregation and redlining. Many whites (trying not to generalize) did not want minorities in their neighborhoods. The funny thing is alot of white's reasons were not because of racism, but because their property values would actually drop because of the retarded redlining practices. People on both sides of the argument tend to see only the surface.

Its not just blacks but many Latinos are backlashing against gentrification (see Bushwick, Williamsburg) as are many ethnic whites. What you're seeing is a backlash (even if irrational) in regards to previous decades of neglect and isolation. On top of that many are being PRICED out by both black and white gentrifiers, if that variable hadn't been taken place I don't think the situation would be as intense as it is. No matter what side of the debate you're on, one cannot deny that the root of it all lies in an economic component, good or bad it is an economic component that sparks all of this and raises people's fears. Alot of black people in Harlem especially have gone through the best and worst of times in the neighborhood, they stuck through it all. So many get angry when being forced out because they know the newcomers who are more well off would leave if things began to get worse. And Italians in Bensonhurst would have all the right to raise hell if Buppies began pricing them out.

Last edited by twist07; 12-01-2009 at 12:36 AM..
 
Old 12-01-2009, 06:01 AM
 
461 posts, read 1,092,512 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by twist07 View Post
Well while I don't exactly agree with keeping a neighborhood all black for the sake of it, I do have to say that the dynamics that made black and latino neighborhoods "black and latino" are different from what made "white" neighborhoods white. Blacks and hispanics were virtually assigned to their neighborhoods through segregation and redlining. Many whites (trying not to generalize) did not want minorities in their neighborhoods. The funny thing is alot of white's reasons were not because of racism, but because their property values would actually drop because of the retarded redlining practices. People on both sides of the argument tend to see only the surface.

Its not just blacks but many Latinos are backlashing against gentrification (see Bushwick, Williamsburg) as are many ethnic whites. What you're seeing is a backlash (even if irrational) in regards to previous decades of neglect and isolation. On top of that many are being PRICED out by both black and white gentrifiers, if that variable hadn't been taken place I don't think the situation would be as intense as it is. No matter what side of the debate you're on, one cannot deny that the root of it all lies in an economic component, good or bad it is an economic component that sparks all of this and raises people's fears. Alot of black people in Harlem especially have gone through the best and worst of times in the neighborhood, they stuck through it all. So many get angry when being forced out because they know the newcomers who are more well off would leave if things began to get worse. And Italians in Bensonhurst would have all the right to raise hell if Buppies began pricing them out.

Basically, EVERYONE has their own agenda to benefit them or their people in some way. It's NOT a race issue but a class issue.

Whether you're black, white, latino or whatever, if you're poor the general stereotype and MO is that poor people will degrade a nice community with their lifestyle and culture and basically fuel the decrease in property value which will ultimately turn into urban decay and blight which is not in the best interest of the people already living in the community. They don't want that to happen to their neighborhood. They want to preserve it and I don't blame them.

On the other hand, poor people don't want white people to move into their neighborhood out of fear that white people will help increase property value, increase quality of life and ultimately price out the poor residents.

So who's right and who's wrong?

In my opinion, poor people are poor for a reason, not by accident. They always pass blame for their lack of success to someone else or the "system". For whatever reason, they under achieved in life and made bad decisons in life that took them down that path. At one point in their lives, they had the opportunity to be more than what they are now but lazyness, lack of desire, drug use or whatever stopped them from proceeding with their dreams, hence the position they are in now.

Now they are paying the price and are the last man on the todum pole (spell check please. lol) because of their status which gives them no leverage and little voice in community affairs.

The bottomline is you get what you put out. If you come off trashy, uneducated and ghetto when you speak, dress and walk, then people are automatically think less of you. That's life...people judge others.

Perfect example: A main reason why Obama was elected president was because he came across as an educated, well spoken and non-threatning looking individual. The total opposite of the stereotypical black person in america.

Al Sharpon on the other hand ran for president and FAILED because he came off too "hardcore black" with his swagger and tone of voice.

A perfect example of you get what you put out.

Last edited by victorfox; 12-01-2009 at 06:11 AM..
 
Old 12-01-2009, 07:12 AM
Status: "RIP Lucky. You were a great cat." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: NYC
2,105 posts, read 2,488,531 times
Reputation: 930
I have problems with gentrification as do many other solidly middle class, educated people. Until the recession, Harlem was beyond the price point of MANY people, so obviously the poor people would have issues with being forced out from neighborhoods they have lived in for generations. I think people need to open their eyes and recognize that gentrification has become a class issue and it may be coming to your neighborhood SOON unless we do more to preserve middle class neighborhoods and build affordable housing instead of luxury buildings everywhere you turn. As a lifelong NYer, I want to stay here but I'm getting concerned that I may be priced out one day.
 
Old 12-01-2009, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn, NY
410 posts, read 708,364 times
Reputation: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
I have problems with gentrification as do many other solidly middle class, educated people. Until the recession, Harlem was beyond the price point of MANY people, so obviously the poor people would have issues with being forced out from neighborhoods they have lived in for generations. I think people need to open their eyes and recognize that gentrification has become a class issue and it may be coming to your neighborhood SOON unless we do more to preserve middle class neighborhoods and build affordable housing instead of luxury buildings everywhere you turn. As a lifelong NYer, I want to stay here but I'm getting concerned that I may be priced out one day.
Great post

Unfortunately I was priced out of NY and moved across the Hudson.

Gentrification has its bad and good. Good because it diversifies the community bring more culture to it and bad it forces out the people that were born and raised that and want to continue to live there.

Once they start calling Harlem NoHa and calling 110th St. Central Park North they are really not looking to keep the middle class in that area.

I mean really rents in Harlem now go from $2000 and up for apts that once cost $500-$1000and maybe $1200.

IMO NY is now long for the middle class, they can't afford living there.
 
Old 12-01-2009, 01:07 PM
 
29,037 posts, read 33,003,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocoaeve View Post
Great post

Unfortunately I was priced out of NY and moved across the Hudson.

Gentrification has its bad and good. Good because it diversifies the community bring more culture to it and bad it forces out the people that were born and raised that and want to continue to live there.

Once they start calling Harlem NoHa and calling 110th St. Central Park North they are really not looking to keep the middle class in that area.

I mean really rents in Harlem now go from $2000 and up for apts that once cost $500-$1000and maybe $1200.

IMO NY is now long for the middle class, they can't afford living there.
Unless you move somewhere Upstate, if one wants to do that.
 
Old 12-01-2009, 01:59 PM
 
8,752 posts, read 8,614,709 times
Reputation: 4168
The "gentrification" of communities like Harlem and the Southern Bronx are being driven far more by people of color than whites. It is easy to see the 3 white people walking down the street, but what you don't see are the 100 new people of color walking also who are in fact driving the rent increases, demanding the services/amenities, and instituting what is perceived to be "gentrification."

If you remember, these communities were never just poor, they had several classes living together. That was not gentrification, that was a healthy community and historically accurate. However, the upper/middle class fleed (white flight yes, but it was moreso class flight, as many people of color left as well), leaving the communities poor, isolated, with no investment/leadership...and the ghetto subculture was born. Today the middle class of all colors are moving back to these communities, where they once were, and diversifying again the social classes. Is this gentrification? NO. It is creating a healthy community where there once was, and returning the community to its former self.

I get that there are those trying to cash-in, and those with agendas to 'cleanse' communities. However, the reality is the bulk of communities of color, like Harlem and South Bronx, are being "gentrified" (more accurately revitalized) by middle class people of color, with others moving in as well to some degree. Is this bad for the community? The answer is no..it is beneficial for the community and in fact the middle class should have never left!
 
Old 12-01-2009, 03:44 PM
 
461 posts, read 1,092,512 times
Reputation: 306
Gentrification is usually associated with white people moving in but MY definition is not only white people but also latino, black, asian, etc. of a HIGHER civilized class.

In my opinion and being from the Bronx, I'm all for gentrification or revitalization because it's well over due but also because it pisses me off that the undesirables, thugs, drug dealers, crack heads and losers of the Bronx are the ones who helped define and created this negative stigma to the point that desirable and higher class people (who would make great additions to the Bronx) refuse to move here because of THEM and their uncivilized behavior.

They fear the LACK of quality of life in the Bronx. They fear for their safety, they fear they can't park their car in the street without some unruley teenagers hanging out, sitting on the hood and denting their car. They fear of coming home late and finding people chillin' on the building's steps smoking weed and acting all loud.

These are the type of people that I am NOT sympathic too and that I wouldn't mind seeing getting priced out of the Bronx or NY at that because it's these people that degrade neighborhoods and contribute to the stigma.
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