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Actually, I'm not. What happened in 1948 and 1972 has a lasting effect. However, we aren't talking about what happened nearly 50 years ago, but the conditions, specifically the gentrification in 2017.
You are being obtuse. 50 years ago is less than one generation of people. You act like wealth isn't created over time and we all started in 2017 on the same level playing field. It like playing a game of monopoly and you keep insisting the last 100 moves didn't lead to the results of today.
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Originally Posted by roseba
Your talking about financial clout. There are poor people (and middle class) of every race and creed. They do not have financial clout. Those who get things done in this city though, or have an "outsized influence" are often those who show up.
That is not how capitalism works. Capital is valued a lot more than labor.
It's getting pretty late right now, but I thought I would end with this.
The people who are sticking their fingers in their ears and going, "La La La, I'm not listening, La La La, poor, minorities and immigrants aren't getting hurt; they're just crybabies" aren't getting the memo that these groups who they keep fobbing off are the proverbial canaries down the mine shaft.
No one said that minorities and immigrants haven't been hurt in the past. No one said policies from even before I was born, didn't have a huge effect on things.
But you have to discuss things on how they are, not how you wish they had turned out. Zeitgeist is an important concept. And in my other post, I mentioned, no one has a crystal ball. It's easy to point fingers and show after the fact detrimental effects of what happened. It's harder to know before things are implemented what could happen, and what will happen. The future is ALWAYS speculative.
But that doesn't really answer the question to the original question. Instead, it has spun into an entire discussion of poor project management, many of which were implemented long before most of us were born.
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People laughed at those groups, too, in CA. And now things have gotten so expensive that even upper white middle class families that are making a dream income can't afford to live in places like San Francisco, since it's all being handed over to the 1%. On top of that, there's a spiking homeless crisis, which in turn is leading to major health crises (like the hepatitis outbreak).
Yes, I'm fully onboard on saying we live in an Oligarchy. And?
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You people who are smugly sitting here rolling your eyes don't get it. Either two things are going to happen in the near future in NYC: you're going to be able to somehow keep living here but then will have to put up with an exploding homeless crisis like we did in the 1980s, or you're going to be displaced yourself in a few years. But you are kidding yourself if everything is peachy keen right now and will be in the unforeseeable future. You are not sitting pretty by any means.
Who said anything about peachy keen? Projection is not a good quality. We have a housing crisis in NYC. We have had one in the works for some time. We have rent stabilized and rent control with no means testing. We have section 8 housing vouchers that rent out substandard housing to distressed people without checking if the value of those vouchers are in alignment with the rents in the substandard home they are paying for, we have an influx of luxury building all over the city, we have no regulations in place for wealthy foreigners who leave properties vacant while other people can't find a place to live. There are many, many more issues.
None of those issues answer the distinct question asked at the beginning of the thread. I got my answer. The answer is a ruse.
It's not about protecting cultural institutions since we both know that many areas are like deserts. It's about fear of displacement. Why not call it what it is instead of wrap it around other words? I moved and purchased a place, after more than 20 years renting, so I would not be displaced. I will also retire overseas so I can live comfortably.
Take a look at Times Square and ask yourself who are they catering to? Not the kind of people who lived and worked there for decades, but the kind of people they wanted to attract to the area.
You mean like the sticky theaters that had body fluids all over the floor? Or the hookers that hung out on the far west side?
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Even if established people loved the new and more suitable living conditions, none of them were priced for the incumbent population. They are always priced out.
When you say people, which people? There is a myth that it only effects brown people.
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So this time around it's Brownsville and BedStuy and if you don't get the picture by now, don't bother trying.
I get the picture, but you don't. You're talking about the 1% when I'm talking about the 99%. And you're pointing fingers as the subset of the 99% that is white and as if they are part of the 1% and blaming them, and discounting that they too get offered the same sh&* deals, if they get offered any at all. (Many don't, because they don't have protected statuses because many don't think they get effected.)
Original question: What cultural things are being lost that are not subject to ZEITGEIST? (Cuz people don't hang out on stoops anywhere anymore, people play video games instead... for example?)
It's not even an immigrant thing, it's a race thing in my opinion. The anti-gentrification activists would protest any busiensess that's white owned...
What intellectually dishonest nonsense. You knew it was intellectually dishonest; that's why you sneakily threw in this disclaimer...
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Originally Posted by l1995
...with the possible exception of Eastern European businesses. However if it was owned by New York born Hispanics, they would not protest.
You can't claim that anti-gentrifiers are against white-owned businesses and then qualify with, "...except Eastern European." Either they're against them or they're not against them.
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Originally Posted by l1995
However if it was owned by New York born Hispanics, they would not protest.
You, like the other race baiters, just keep piling lie upon lie upon lie about what anti-gentrifiers feel, what they think, etc. But you see, my friend, that was the point of OP's post, so that you and the other people like you could have your little echo chamber where you could all sit back, make up straw men and lies about the stance of anti-gentrifiers without their input and decide for yourselves what they're all about. Not discuss what they actually think, feel or experience.
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Originally Posted by l1995
Gentrifiers generally don't like chain places, I don't know why anyone here thinks that gentrifiers want chain restaurants.
No one said or thought that. That's what the people who started and participated in this racebaiting thread said.
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Originally Posted by l1995
That's ridiculous of you to say, nowhere did anyone imply that. I never said gentrification was problem free or that I want NYC to become more gentrified. But it's not this completely terrible thing with no benefits that you're making it out to be.
I never said you said that. I said some people said that. Why are you answering defensively to a statement I was making about other people?
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Originally Posted by l1995
I mentioned myself how I personally know many minorities who like at least some of the changes associated with gentrification, so you're wrong to imply that gentrification is despised by all minorities.
LOL. He "knows" many minorities. I love the arrogance. The person who "knows" many minorities knows better than the minority. 'Kay then.
You are being obtuse. 50 years ago is less than one generation of people. You act like wealth isn't created over time and we all started in 2017 on the same level playing field. It like playing a game of monopoly and you keep insisting the last 100 moves didn't lead to the results of today.
Actually, a generation is defined as 20 years. So that would be 2.5 generations. And were's still talking about today.
Please address the should could crystal ball that you believe people should have had, before you and I were both born?
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That is not how capitalism works. Capital is valued a lot more than labor.
Huh? How about going to community board meetings? How about running for city council? How about participating in activist groups? That's what I meant by showing up. (as opposed to complacancy... that's how it is, I can't do anything to change anything, I won't try. Or if I do, I will do so by screaming and shouting and pointing fingers and not offering constructive alteratives solutions, not backing up ideas with data. )
Rosemary's playground. A playground near Seneca Ave in Queens. It was largely frequented by poorer hispanics and some recent immigrants, Serbian, Bosnian, Polish, Romanian. Then the hipsters moved in. They decided it needed an upgrade. They attended CB5 meetings, they did the work, they talked the talk, they made noise. They got it done in only two years.
You, like the other race baiters, just keep piling lie upon lie upon lie about what anti-gentrifiers feel, what they think, etc. But you see, my friend, that was the point of OP's post, so that you and the other people like you could have your little echo chamber where you could all sit back, make up straw men and lies about the stance of anti-gentrifiers without their input and decide for yourselves what they're all about. Not discuss what they actually think, feel or experience.
I never said you said that. I said some people said that. Why are you answering defensively to a statement I was making about other people?
Where there you go. Who said I'm a pro-gentrifier? I asked a question that still has not been answered. But a whole tangent of other things have been discussed instead.
I highlighted in bold all the parts where YOU have done exactly the same thing. Projection, at its finest.
I've never been pro-gentrification. I've always been sensitive to what's happening in rents in the city. But I have also done my homework on the issue. That homework does not consist of black hats and white hats. The issues are far more complex that that, but this thread does not demostrate that.
Okay, let's first ask what are some gold standard neighborhoods for variety/quality of retail? What are the attributes of those neighborhoods that they have in common?
Original question: What cultural things are being lost that are not subject to ZEITGEIST? (Cuz people don't hang out on stoops anywhere anymore, people play video games instead... for example?)
But you can try to at least to shape that change, and lobby for what you want, and think is the best for your community.
Well, that's what the anti-gentrification activists are doing, lobbying for what they want...which I think is mostly, though not entirely, misguided.
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Originally Posted by roseba
I've lived in NYC my entire life. I don't remember EVER entire neighborhoods being the domain of only people between 20 - 30 years old. This is a rather new phenomenon.
Yes, well, neither has the world ever had so many very young millionaires and even billionaires either. It's astounding just how many rich people there are in the world...practically every one of those fancy new buildings in this one city alone is for the rich (and, typically, young).
I am a big art enthusiast. That said, the situation, and the outrage was ridiculous. Wolkoff bought the property in 1971 and did not have immediate plans to do something with the property. That doesn't mean he never had plans to develop it. Back in 1991, LIC was still a low rent dump. He legally allowed art to be painted on his building. Jonathan Cohen (who did not own the buidling) began to curate work on it and he renamed the building. In 2009, the NYC Dept of buildings condemed the place. In 2013 the owners, decided they would develop on the site, something planned all along.
As owners of the building, who were responsible for it, it's in their right to do whatever they want, with THEIR property. The fact that it became a mecca for outsider art withstanding. When you create art on someone else's property, it is not yours to control. I'm sorry it's something you lost. It was also something I would hae liked to see. However, I always felt the tantrum that resulted afterward was childish, entitled and immature. It wasn't their property.
I personally think chopped cheese was made up to influence people!
Before you know it, there will be gourmet roti made by a French chef in Crown Heights by the end of the decade! SMH[/quote]
I never heard of chopped cheese even though I heard it was a NYC thing and I am a native. It actually sounds like slop. ICK!! I don't have a preference for heavy comfort food and I've always steered away from heavy fried, heavy meat, heavy fat. But I digress.
There has never been a chef (of quality) that hasn't tried to elevate an reimagine food. Food is a form of art. It's a very important thing to me which is why I rail about restaurantsconstantly. Especially since in the house I grew up in, we ate a different flag every single day.
And I have yet to see any form of haute cuisine supplant the authentic version or replace it. Usually, people taste it in some uppity joint, and then go seeking out the real McCoy. If anything, it elevates the food that may be obscure into the public consciousness. To me that is a celebration of culture. Don't think so? 10 years ago, there weren't Poke' and Ramen joints everywhere. People who actually like quality food will travel miles to go to the best version of said cuisine, even if its in a hole in the wall.
Food of all things, has expanded so much in NYC. It was once Chinese, (a lot of it bad and fake), mediocre Italian-American (not real Italian), southern food, mediocre American, and haute French. Now, we are blessed to have every single possible variation of food in NYC. So yet again, another bad example. People have elevated their palates in the past 30 years. The same four dishes that their mother made (and not necessarily because she was a good cook) just don't cut it anymore. Not in NYC, and not most of the USA. It's a different culture than it once was.
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