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Old 07-02-2018, 10:34 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
7,557 posts, read 2,691,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
No, the poor trying hard to prevent everybody else from moving to the Bronx (per my own experience).
There seems to be a gang problem in the core areas of the Bronx. It's a damn shame how the media is portraying entire borough as this hell hole that is overrun with crime. The areas that constantly seem to come up are Tremont, Fordham, Belmont and western parts of the Bronx and the South Bronx. You hardly ever hear of City Island, Throggs Neck, Riverdale, Morris Park, Woodlawn, Pelham Parkway, Pelham Gardens in the news for crime. It needs to be made clear that it's the same dumpy neighborhoods coming up in the news that are incorrectly stereotyping the ENTIRE borough as having a crime problem and I have a problem with it because it's incorrect. It's like having a crime problem in upper Manhattan and then saying that all of Manhattan has a crime problem.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
19,149 posts, read 32,681,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrepont7731 View Post
There seems to be a gang problem in the core areas of the Bronx. It's a damn shame how the media is portraying entire borough as this hell hole that is overrun with crime. The areas that constantly seem to come up are Tremont, Fordham, Belmont and western parts of the Bronx and the South Bronx. You hardly ever hear of City Island, Throggs Neck, Riverdale, Morris Park, Woodlawn, Pelham Parkway, Pelham Gardens in the news for crime. It needs to be made clear that it's the same dumpy neighborhoods coming up in the news that are incorrectly stereotyping the ENTIRE borough as having a crime problem and I have a problem with it because it's incorrect. It's like having a crime problem in upper Manhattan and then saying that all of Manhattan has a crime problem.
Actually you bring up an interesting topic

I mean my opinion is that there was just so much crime and decay in the Bronx that it couldn't help but get sensationalized and capitalized upon.
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:37 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,123 posts, read 21,737,714 times
Reputation: 10216
Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrepont7731 View Post
Enough with the "The Bronx". The entire borough is a not a cesspool. To all of you that keep saying "THE BRONX", it is only SELECT areas of the Bronx with a crime problem, and it's about time that people STOP saying the Bronx. It is NOT the entire borough! It's annoying to keep reading this false information. Every borough has its problems and it is unfair and down right ignorant to categorize an entire borough when talking about such issues.

Much of Far Rockaway is a dump, yet the entire borough isn't categorized as one, nor should it be. Where in the hell do you live that you keep making such ignorant comments?
I don’t understand why you’re quoting me. I never said anything about how I view the Bronx in its entirety. The only time I talked about the Bronx as a borough are:

- the average distance of the neighborhoods of the Bronx to the employment centers of Manhattan

- the Bronx in terms of when people’s perceptions of the Bronx will likely change which is in line with what you’re saying in terms of how people perceive the borough
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Old 07-03-2018, 03:16 AM
 
135 posts, read 117,930 times
Reputation: 93
It's the city it eats up alive, a vicious cycle of poverty, broken families, broken dreams, despair; a recipe for murder and crime .. i see this kids walking around with no hope, no future, no dreams, just going through the motions, they get mixed up with the wrong crowd and they think they got to prove themselves to other kids in the hood. The police and the government has to get more involved with this communities.
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Old 07-03-2018, 05:29 AM
 
1,144 posts, read 391,723 times
Reputation: 1195
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycman9 View Post
It's the city it eats up alive, a vicious cycle of poverty, broken families, broken dreams, despair; a recipe for murder and crime .. i see this kids walking around with no hope, no future, no dreams, just going through the motions, they get mixed up with the wrong crowd and they think they got to prove themselves to other kids in the hood. The police and the government has to get more involved with this communities.

The government is already involved to the maximum (way overinvolved in my opinion - normal adults should't require that much caretaking). The role of the police is not to help communities, but to protect peaceful citizens from harmful ones, and yes, that protection should be much improved and expanded in tbe Bronx. But "these communities" (meaning this 40% of the Bronx population that is living below poverty level) can ultimately only help themselves - by not joining gangs or other criminal lifestyle, by not having kids they can't support, by developing some type of productive personal interest (rather than the overpowering interest in easy money and drugs of addiction). The starting point for self-improvement would be to abandon excuses for pursuing crime and other irresponsible forms of behavior.
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Old 07-03-2018, 05:52 AM
 
23,254 posts, read 16,063,944 times
Reputation: 8534
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
The government is already involved to the maximum (way overinvolved in my opinion - normal adults should't require that much caretaking). The role of the police is not to help communities, but to protect peaceful citizens from harmful ones, and yes, that protection should be much improved and expanded in tbe Bronx. But "these communities" (meaning this 40% of the Bronx population that is living below poverty level) can ultimately only help themselves - by not joining gangs or other criminal lifestyle, by not having kids they can't support, by developing some type of productive personal interest (rather than the overpowering interest in easy money and drugs of addiction). The starting point for self-improvement would be to abandon excuses for pursuing crime and other irresponsible forms of behavior.
Well it seems like if nothing is done about the problem, the rest of the society will pay in terms of being victims of crime and being forced to support both the criminal justice system and welfare.

Obviously this is something that the ENTIRE society must deal with.

Not doing drugs and not joining gangs does not mean all well be in life. There's a massive homeless population in NYC, and it isn't always because of addiction or mental illness.

Rents have skyrocketed for starters. Landlords don't care whether or not you do drugs. There's no way if you can't pay, and there are a lot of low paying jobs out there.

Much of the country has had severe economic distress to the point where various communities have collapsed, and not just inner city communities. Trump's base voted him in because offshoring, outsourcing to temp agencies, etc have decimated white working class communities. This is something you conveniently ignore.

And no, the people who lost their factory or back office jobs can't just get into Harvard and become doctors.

"The authors suggest middle-aged white people are suffering from a “cumulative disadvantage over life, in the labor market, in marriage and child outcomes, and in health” triggered by fewer job opportunities for those without college degrees."
Death Rates Are Rising for White Americans | Fortune

https://hbr.org/2017/06/white-americ...m-1965-to-2005

"
In 2015 Princeton economists Anne Case and Angus Deaton published a stunning finding: The mortality rates for working-age white Americans have been rising since 1999. For mortality rates to rise instead of fall is extremely rare in developed countries except as a result of war or pandemic.

W170619_SQUIRES_WHITEAMERICANS


However, history does offer a recent example of a large industrialized country where mortality rates rose over an extended period: Russia in the decades before and after the Soviet Union’s collapse. Although there are important differences between the two phenomena, there are also sobering similarities."
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Old 07-03-2018, 06:25 AM
 
1,144 posts, read 391,723 times
Reputation: 1195
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Well it seems like if nothing is done about the problem, the rest of the society will pay in terms of being victims of crime and being forced to support both the criminal justice system and welfare.

Obviously this is something that the ENTIRE society must deal with.

Not doing drugs and not joining gangs does not mean all well be in life. There's a massive homeless population in NYC, and it isn't always because of addiction or mental illness.

Rents have skyrocketed for starters. Landlords don't care whether or not you do drugs. There's no way if you can't pay, and there are a lot of low paying jobs out there.

Much of the country has had severe economic distress to the point where various communities have collapsed, and not just inner city communities. Trump's base voted him in because offshoring, outsourcing to temp agencies, etc have decimated white working class communities. This is something you conveniently ignore.

And no, the people who lost their factory or back office jobs can't just get into Harvard and become doctors.

"The authors suggest middle-aged white people are suffering from a “cumulative disadvantage over life, in the labor market, in marriage and child outcomes, and in health” triggered by fewer job opportunities for those without college degrees."
Death Rates Are Rising for White Americans | Fortune

https://hbr.org/2017/06/white-americ...m-1965-to-2005

"
In 2015 Princeton economists Anne Case and Angus Deaton published a stunning finding: The mortality rates for working-age white Americans have been rising since 1999. For mortality rates to rise instead of fall is extremely rare in developed countries except as a result of war or pandemic.

W170619_SQUIRES_WHITEAMERICANS


However, history does offer a recent example of a large industrialized country where mortality rates rose over an extended period: Russia in the decades before and after the Soviet Union’s collapse. Although there are important differences between the two phenomena, there are also sobering similarities."



True, nobody can "just" get into Harvard and become a doctor (or "just" get into any advanced professional position). It takes several decades of patiently pursuing a certain (low-paid) path of training if you want to get into any advanced position. Nobody "just" somehow gets into it overnight. People who have lost a job (provided they have not saddled themselves with a criminal history, drug addiction, or kids they can feed only if living paycheck fo paycheck) can get a government stipend/loan to retrain themselves for a different job. Or move and find their old job elsewhere. Employment in the US is at the historic peak, and presumably employers have difficulty finding workers for any empty spots.


The problem is that certain people perceive that either you "just" get into Harvard and become a doctor because you are privileged, or you are underprivileged which gives you an excuse to harrass everybody around you and live off of other people. It does not work that way. People get into good professional positions gradually, by sustained effort over many years, starting either from privilege or underprivilege, it does not matter all that much in the end. If you don't want to expend all that effort, you can (with a lesser and shorter effort) become, say, a plumber - an occupation which is very much in demand. A plumber is just an example, one could think about thousands of other examples.


It is not like losing a job is the end of the world. My career for the last 18 years has been in the form of temporary jobs, temporary contracts with institutions where I provide whatever it is that I do, so if you consider that I am jobless every time a contract ends, that would be equvalent to losing my job about 40 times over 18 years. But every time my contract ends, I look for another one nationwide. To me, that is not catastrophic but normal.


Regarding the suicides, I am aware of the statistics, and think they are not something that can be corrected by government intervention. I don't think the cause of increased suicide rate in middle-class Americans aged 40 to 60 is primarily economic - I honestly think it has to do with not knowing how to grow up/grow old.

Last edited by elnrgby; 07-03-2018 at 06:40 AM..
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Old 07-03-2018, 07:13 AM
 
23,254 posts, read 16,063,944 times
Reputation: 8534
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
True, nobody can "just" get into Harvard and become a doctor (or "just" get into any advanced professional position). It takes several decades of patiently pursuing a certain (low-paid) path of training if you want to get into any advanced position. Nobody "just" somehow gets into it overnight. People who have lost a job (provided they have not saddled themselves with a criminal history, drug addiction, or kids they can feed only if living paycheck fo paycheck) can get a government stipend/loan to retrain themselves for a different job. Or move and find their old job elsewhere. Employment in the US is at the historic peak, and presumably employers have difficulty finding workers for any empty spots.


The problem is that certain people perceive that either you "just" get into Harvard and become a doctor because you are privileged, or you are underprivileged which gives you an excuse to harrass everybody around you and live off of other people. It does not work that way. People get into good professional positions gradually, by sustained effort over many years, starting either from privilege or underprivilege, it does not matter all that much in the end. If you don't want to expend all that effort, you can (with a lesser and shorter effort) become, say, a plumber - an occupation which is very much in demand. A plumber is just an example, one could think about thousands of other examples.


It is not like losing a job is the end of the world. My career for the last 18 years has been in the form of temporary jobs, temporary contracts with institutions where I provide whatever it is that I do, so if you consider that I am jobless every time a contract ends, that would be equvalent to losing my job about 40 times over 18 years. But every time my contract ends, I look for another one nationwide. To me, that is not catastrophic but normal.


Regarding the suicides, I am aware of the statistics, and think they are not something that can be corrected by government intervention. I don't think the cause of increased suicide rate in middle-class Americans aged 40 to 60 is primarily economic - I honestly think it has to do with not knowing how to grow up/grow old.
Well if you lose your job, unless you have a lot of savings, you have no money to just "move" elsewhere. You have no income, and just because you move does not guarantee you will get a job. You may or may not.

"The link between erosion of relative status and suicide may also involve gender and race. A 35-country study by Allison Miller of Griffith University and colleagues suggested rising female labour force participation is associated with increased male suicide rates. Carol Graham and colleagues at the Brookings Institute find that controlling for factors including income, gender, marital status, education and employment, whites are considerably less optimistic, report lower life satisfaction and more worry and stress than Latinos and blacks. They also find an association between deaths of despair and these subjective wellbeing measures. The researchers argue that one factor behind their results may be that poor whites have fallen in status in relative terms, so that they are doing worse or no better than their parents while poor minorities have still seen some progress even if they remain disadvantaged. “The combination of fear of downward mobility, weak safety nets, and eroding social cohesion likely contributes to the high levels of desperation,” they suggest."
https://www.economist.com/democracy-...g-suicide-rate
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Old 07-03-2018, 08:26 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
7,557 posts, read 2,691,767 times
Reputation: 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I don’t understand why you’re quoting me. I never said anything about how I view the Bronx in its entirety. The only time I talked about the Bronx as a borough are:

- the average distance of the neighborhoods of the Bronx to the employment centers of Manhattan

- the Bronx in terms of when people’s perceptions of the Bronx will likely change which is in line with what you’re saying in terms of how people perceive the borough
You didn't specify. You said "The Bronx" as in the entire borough, then you went on to say the following:

It’s more that the Bronx in comparison to Queens and Brooklyn has most of its neighborhoods much further away from the main employment centers in Manhattan. It’s only fairly recently that people and housing prices have pushed enough people with decent paying jobs out far enough in the poorer neighborhoods of Brooklyn and Queens that the poorer neighborhoods Bronx has become an attractive alternative which also accounts for why so much new development has concentrated itself in Mott Haven and Port Morris.

If and when Metro-North routes to Penn Station with stops in the Bronx and a reasonable fare is probably when you’ll start seeing a sea change in how people view the Bronx since at that point another portion of the borough will have a short commute to the employment centers of Manhattan and potentially to Westchester and Connecticut. That’s still at least several years away, though meanwhile development will continue to expand through the South Bronx.


If and when Metro-North routes to Penn Station, as if people aren't already living and enjoying the Bronx? You sound so ignorant. The people in Riverdale have been enjoying their neighborhood for many years with Metro-North, with low crime, high quality of life and so on. The same is true of Country Club, Woodlawn, Morris Park and host of other neighborhoods. I'm a New Yorker and it amazes me how ignorant a lot of people on this board are when they keep talking about the entire borough as having high crime, poverty and so on when it's simply not true. In fact I'm a fan of all of the boroughs. If you look at my posts I don't lump entire boroughs together. I DO talk about ghetto areas, but I'm well aware of the good neighborhoods in all boroughs. I just wish people around here would open their eyes get out and travel and see the entire five boroughs for what they are. A great representation of NYC as a whole.

Last edited by pierrepont7731; 07-03-2018 at 09:13 AM..
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:06 AM
 
1,144 posts, read 391,723 times
Reputation: 1195
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Well if you lose your job, unless you have a lot of savings, you have no money to just "move" elsewhere. You have no income, and just because you move does not guarantee you will get a job. You may or may not.

"The link between erosion of relative status and suicide may also involve gender and race. A 35-country study by Allison Miller of Griffith University and colleagues suggested rising female labour force participation is associated with increased male suicide rates. Carol Graham and colleagues at the Brookings Institute find that controlling for factors including income, gender, marital status, education and employment, whites are considerably less optimistic, report lower life satisfaction and more worry and stress than Latinos and blacks. They also find an association between deaths of despair and these subjective wellbeing measures. The researchers argue that one factor behind their results may be that poor whites have fallen in status in relative terms, so that they are doing worse or no better than their parents while poor minorities have still seen some progress even if they remain disadvantaged. “The combination of fear of downward mobility, weak safety nets, and eroding social cohesion likely contributes to the high levels of desperation,” they suggest."
https://www.economist.com/democracy-...g-suicide-rate

The link between economy and suicides is a conjecture, post hoc ergo propter hoc kind of logical mistake. You could likewise link suicides to the age of Internet, to growing up with relatively complete fulfillment of basic survival needs and having nothing left to strive for, to loss of youth, to any coincident phenomenon you care to name. The only way to figure out a specific reason for the uptick in suicides would be to collect suicide notes anf see if they tend to list a common reason.


Incidentally, when I moved to the US (from another continent, not from another borough), I had far less to my name than people have for a welfare check or unemployment compensation. I moved many times for the reason of education/training/work-based training. I still keep constantly moving around for work, only that I now can afford to own two home-base condos as well, one on each coast. But the first time I moved within the US, it was with two large suitcases that housed all my possessions, on a combination of Amtrak and Greyhound.

Last edited by elnrgby; 07-03-2018 at 09:34 AM..
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