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Old 07-24-2018, 09:32 PM
 
Location: 2 blocks from bay in L.I, NY
1,611 posts, read 1,298,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMario View Post
Well that's because PR purposely attempted and succeeded in whitening their population. They sterilized mulatto and black PR women so they wouldn't be able to reproduce and due to the "cedula de gracias" brought over 400,000 + (between PR and Cuba) white european settlers.

DR on the other hand, has had a constant flow of Haitians for their entire history. In fact, I know many "Dominicans" who are straight Haitians but were born and raised in DR, and thus identify with DR and speak only Spanish. You would see this "Dominican" and say "Oh, Dominicans are so black etc etc" when in actuality, this person is not an accurate representation of Dominican phenotype, instead they represent what a Haitian looks like. Anyways, in additional to all of this, DR experienced White flight due to the Haitian invasion, and also many White Dominican scholars were killed when Haiti took over. Trujillo tried to reverse this "blackening" process that was going on in DR by taking in Jewish Refugees escaping the Holocaust, but this failed because it was not a large enough number of them coming over and also these jews simply used DR as a stepping stone to immigrate to the US, so they didn't intermingle with Dominicans or started families etc etc.

So to summarize, I would expect PR to be whiter than DR due to all these circumstances. If you were to look at a census, pre cedulas of gracias/sterilization PR and pre Haitian invasion DR, their demographics were pretty similar, and DR may have been whiter, if I recall correctly.

https://www.cwluherstory.org/health/...men-sterilized

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...Graces_of_1815
Very enlightening, thanks!

 
Old 07-24-2018, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn the best borough in NYC!
1,943 posts, read 688,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klassyhk View Post
Very enlightening, thanks!
You aren’t going a good job taking Supermario serious
 
Old 08-06-2018, 04:02 PM
 
6,962 posts, read 5,510,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Everyone in Puerto Rico and the DR is “mixed”. It’s a meaningless term in those contexts. People will call you by your appearance or skin color.
There are a wide variety of phenotypes in these islands, both having social consequences. They have a name for it. I do not think that I will see a black, or obviously Afro descendant governor of PR in the near future. So clearly the "we are all Puerto Ricans, or Dominicans" is nonsense.
 
Old 08-06-2018, 04:10 PM
 
Location: New York, NY
7,562 posts, read 2,805,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
There are a wide variety of phenotypes in these islands, both having social consequences. They have a name for it. I do not think that I will see a black, or obviously Afro descendant governor of PR in the near future. So clearly the "we are all Puerto Ricans, or Dominicans" is nonsense.
LMAO... Very true... The Hugo Chávez "indio/black" mixed types rising to power is certainly not the norm. Usually light skinned "white" Latinos rule no matter how mixed the countries are. Same deal in PR and DR.

I can tell you one thing. I absolutely refuse to watch TV channels in Spanish here because I get sick of seeing nothing but fair skinned "white" Latinos as "the face" for all Latinos. You would think all Latinos were white. I mean they go out of their way to handpick these people, like someone whose family immigrated from Germany years ago. Those are the types of Latinos they go for. Ones that clearly have European ancestry. They don't even have mestizos on there, let alone Latinos that are mulatos or trigueños and the only time you see black Latinos on is if they are in some demeaning role like being the maid or some nonsense. I don't know if you're familiar with that show "Xica", but I used to watch it growing up. It was originally in Portuguese, but done in Spanish and back then you'd see black Latinos in such roles. You have to wonder just how backwards Latin America is that this sort of thing still happens in 2018.
 
Old 08-06-2018, 04:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
L
So people like you really need to stop the tribalism.
When I came to NYC in the 80s I was told that Caribbean people "owned all of the houses and took all of the jobs". It was our fault that black Americans were having a hard time. I was also told that Caribbean music was "jungle music" and that I should stop listening to it. In fact in those days black Americans didn't even want to call us "black". Many boasted that they hated us as much as they hated whites.

I was also told in full Trump style that I must because "American" meaning shelving all of my Caribbean identity and culture. When we held on to our Caribbean culture and identities we were told that we were "tribal".

Is there ever any recognition that many of the "black firsts" in NYC were Caribbean blacks, or that Caribbean blacks like Shirley Chisholm, and many others helped black Americans? Of course not. Caribbean blacks were called a bunch of pushy and ungrateful people who didn't want to contribute to the black struggle. Don't mind that without the heavy movement of Caribbean blacks to citizenship and to vote Dinkins wouldn't have been mayor.


So don't talk to me about tribal. Black Americans must look in the mirror and so should Puerto Ricans if West Indians and Dominicans are ambivalent about them.

I look with interest now that certain black Americans whine about how "Caribbean/African" NYC has become. In the 70s and 80s we were called all sorts of "monkey" names, told that we came on "banana boats" and they laughed at our accents. Even today African kids in NYC schools are being attacked by black American kids if they reveal that they are African....yes the whole "booty scratcher" thing.

FACT. The median household incomes of people from the non Hispanic Caribbean and South America exceed median household incomes of black Americans and Puerto Ricans in NYC. That isnt tribal it is a FACT.
 
Old 08-06-2018, 04:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
.

Lots of Afro-Latinos today would simply refer to themselves as Afro-Latino or Black (thus the major trend of young Latinos wearing afros or natural hair).

.
Go into Washington Heights and tell them that they are "black" and see how quickly they chase you with hysterical screams that they are whatever name that they pick to describe themselves as being mixed.


If Dominicans and Puerto Ricans accepted black identities this topic would NOT be discussed in NYC. These are the two largest Hispanic groups in NYC and so dominate the Latin narrative of this city. That some activists might be adapting these identities says nothing about the majority who do NOT!
 
Old 08-06-2018, 04:46 PM
 
6,962 posts, read 5,510,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
US citizens can take public benefits. Immigrants until they get greencards or citizenship cannot.

That could be a factor.

Of course it could be your area just has more Puerto Rican’s than Dominicans.
Let me educate you. One does NOT become an immigrant until one is LEGALLY admitted into a country. One is only a MIGRANT.

Permanent residents CANNOT get public benefits until they naturalize or live in the USA for 10 years, which ever comes first. If they try to get that the people who sponsored them will get a bill for the benefits that they people have illegally received. Sponsors assume responsibility for those who they sponsor should they people become a burden to the state within the stated period!

The 1996 law PASSED with DEMOCRATS did three things.

1. Anyone who was illegally present in the USA for more than a year was subject to deportation and barred from re-entering the USA for at least 5 years.

2. An undocumented person who wanted to adjust their status had to return home and file an application there and wait. Yes their US citizen spouses could file for them but the mere act of doing that would then force them to leave the USA.

3. Crimes as small as shoplifting or turn style jumping resulted in green card holders being deported.


So all of you "activists" who now pretend as if all was well until Trump became president need to educate yourselves. In fact the "liberal" voices in 1996 screamed that (legal) immigrants were talking away jobs from "hard working Americans". Yes that was the cry of the trade unions.


Instead of screaming "abolish ICE" people should insist that the 1996 immigration laws are appealed and charges for obtaining a green card and US citizenship reduced.
 
Old 08-06-2018, 04:53 PM
 
6,962 posts, read 5,510,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrepont7731 View Post
LMAO... Very true... The Hugo Chávez "indio/black" mixed types rising to power is certainly not the norm. Usually light skinned "white" Latinos rule no matter how mixed the countries are. Same deal in PR and DR.

. You have to wonder just how backwards Latin America is that this sort of thing still happens in 2018.
As racist as the USA is its paradise when compared to those countries in terms of the level of upward mobility that darker people can get. Daily I see blacks on TV discussing all sorts of issues and playing all sorts of roles on TV.

The representation of similar people in Latin Am is much less, and until recently, almost nonexistent, except in the "slave roles". In fact its the heightened visibility of blacks in the US which has shamed media into letting a few in. So bad that I heard that it is easier for a black Hispanic to get on English programming in the USA than in the Hispanic channels. Soledad O'Brien (as light as she is) has made mention of that.

I am not going to argue about the various names that are used in Latin America but what I do know is that JLo and Celia Cruz are seen in a whole different light, even though they both have (varying degrees) of African ancestry.
 
Old 08-06-2018, 05:04 PM
 
6,962 posts, read 5,510,894 times
Reputation: 3448
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Yes. That is very true. And among mixed race people, the percentage of European tends to be higher among Puerto Ricans than Dominicans. Puerto Rico simply had more European settlers than did the DR (as an overall percentage).
Cuba, DR and PR had very different histories and that is shown in their ancestries.

Puerto Ricans are varying degrees of Euro/Afro/Taino ancestry. That is because it was never a rich plantation island so few enslaved people were taken there and those who arrived eventually mixed into the general population. While there was some 19/early 20th C migration from Europe it was much less than Cuba as the island was poorer, and then became a US territory.


Cubans have a larger "white" and " black" populations, even though most are now mixed. In the late 18th and into the 19th C it became a prosperous sugar island (replacing Haiti and the British West Indian islands) and so large numbers of enslaved peoples arrived in Cuba AFTER the transatlantic slave trade ended. Large numbers of Europeans (many northern Spanish) also arrived up to the mid 20th C. Cuba also had various waves of Haitian migration, and between 1900-1930 also migration from the British and Dutch Caribbean.



The DR was different. It was under Haitian rule for 2 decades, during which time many lighter Dominicans left. There was always migration from Haiti, even during slavery when Maroons established themselves in the mountains along the border. The DR also had migration from the English speaking Caribbean from the 1890s to 1930. The DR never received large numbers of Euro immigrants, even though Trujillo tried hard to get them.



So while there is overlap in all 3 islands there is also visible difference
 
Old 08-06-2018, 05:20 PM
 
Location: New York, NY
7,562 posts, read 2,805,197 times
Reputation: 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
As racist as the USA is its paradise when compared to those countries in terms of the level of upward mobility that darker people can get. Daily I see blacks on TV discussing all sorts of issues and playing all sorts of roles on TV.

The representation of similar people in Latin Am is much less, and until recently, almost nonexistent, except in the "slave roles". In fact its the heightened visibility of blacks in the US which has shamed media into letting a few in. So bad that I heard that it is easier for a black Hispanic to get on English programming in the USA than in the Hispanic channels. Soledad O'Brien (as light as she is) has made mention of that.

I am not going to argue about the various names that are used in Latin America but what I do know is that JLo and Celia Cruz are seen in a whole different light, even though they both have (varying degrees) of African ancestry.
Well of course. JLo is the "typical" mulatta that is sort after. She has complexion that's light enough (we don't want them too dark lol), long hair, big mulatta butt, etc.

Not so much with Celia Cruz. I meet so many Latin Americans that will cling to their "European" ancestry. I chuckle to myself. We have a guy from Chile who has started working in our office and he goes out of his way to speak Italian with me and a colleague of mine. I asked him if he gravitates towards Chilean places more or Italian places more when he's out and he said his family goes more to Italian places because of the Italian influence. In fact I've met lots of Chileans like this. They literally kiss up so much that I have to keep myself from laughing because it's clear that view Italians as being superior.
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