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Old 07-15-2018, 09:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrepont7731 View Post
It could have something to do with the areas themselves historically. University Heights wasn't always a poor neighborhood. Some of these areas of the Bronx were middle to upper class. We've had discussions about why the Bronx has so few upper class residents. Well a lot of them were pushed out by things like the Cross Bronx Expressway. Much of the South Bronx was relatively poor even when it was white, especially if we exclude the Grand Concourse, which was built for middle class families back in the day. With that said, the white flight started in the South Bronx and then moved north, so the South Bronx really endured much of the arson for longer as a result. When the whites fled they usually fled further north or left the Bronx entirely. White flight hit further north later on though, which likely spared the amount of arson that occurred and its duration.

University Heights was mainly middle class white families that would eventually flee as whites did in the South Bronx.
Well yeah, that's true. It also seems like the West Bronx had a higher percentage of elevator buildings, which I'm guessing were more valuable than the walkup buildings found in the Central Bronx.

The arson was so idiotic in my opinion though, waves of Dominican, Mexican, and West African immigrants would have likely filled those buildings by the 1990s if they held onto them.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:35 PM
 
Location: New York, NY
7,548 posts, read 2,685,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995 View Post
Well yeah, that's true. It also seems like the West Bronx had a higher percentage of elevator buildings, which I'm guessing were more valuable than the walkup buildings found in the Central Bronx.

The arson was so idiotic in my opinion though, waves of Dominican, Mexican, and West African immigrants would have likely filled those buildings by the 1990s if they held onto them.
Here's your answer right here. University Heights was a neighborhood that whites escaped to originally:

"But from the 1920s onwards, the area’s reputation took a turn; the depression hit the area hard. As statuses changed, many of the Jews relocated to University Heights, Tremont, Grand Concourse, or Pelham parkway. By the end of the century, the once middle-class neighborhoods in the South Bronx were characterized as working and lower middle class areas."

It makes a lot of sense because what started happening is whites moved further north because the South Bronx even before arson set in was starting to become less desirable. When the development of Co-op City came about that's when even more Jews left the South Bronx because Co-op City was viewed as much nicer. Pelham Parkway to this day still has a Jewish presence.

"The Mitchell-Lama law was passed in 1955. The legislation aimed to build state-subsidized, middle-income housing. Co-op city caused White Jewish residents to leave the Grand Concourse Neighborhood, leaving vacancies and worsening slums in their wake. The Mitchell Lama policies also had an enclavizaton effect on the urban poor by siphoning off more affluent residents out of disenfranchised neighborhoods."


https://wp.nyu.edu/urbanpracticesen2...-20th-century/

As for your other comment, understand that these landlords were hurting. They had bills to pay and their properties were basically worthless. It's the same thing that happens to homeowners. When one person forecloses, it can lead to a ton of them in the same area because the properties start to lose their value to the point to where you owe more money than the property is worth. Unless you were a landlord with deep pockets, holding on to a property with other properties that were burnt out just made no financial sense. Who was going to rent them when there was nothing around there? Landlords back then weren't these large corporate types. Many were small landlords who really depended on having tenants to collect rent from to pay their mortgages. They simply couldn't hold out long enough. Not only that but the people moving in were not middle class as the previous residents were, so they couldn't charge the same rents as they were before, which again devalued their property and how much money they could make.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
5,503 posts, read 17,193,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995 View Post
If Grand, Davidson, etc. were hit as hard as Longwood/West Farms, then why are they mostly intact looking? I do see some missing pieces here and there but these avenues look much, much better than the blocks of Southern Blvd

I actually looked at the length of the blocks you listed (Findley, Teller, Monroe) and they look pretty intact. But once I go East of Park Ave, I see in immediate increase in blocks that look like they were destroyed.
Many if not all of the buildings in West Farms were bulldozed, and new houses were built on them.

On the west side, not as many of the buildings were bulldozed, and alot of the developers put money into rehabilitating the buildings.

Although in the worst set of photos there (the grand/aqueduct/harrison photos) there is a large swath of new private homes. Also on University ave after W 174th, another block of new construction.

If no one bought the buildings, they were bulldozed. A lot of West Farms/Longwood were still vacant lots well into the 90's and 2000's, until a developer bought the sites.

I had read an article, which I can't find, how developers bought buildings on Davidson ave in the 1980's and rehabilitated them.

But I am in agreement with you, the west Farms, charlotte street, longwood area was the worst hit, because the entire neighborhood went down, and there were more large swaths of vacant lots.

That doesn't mean that west of Jerome wasn't hurt by the fires. It looks the way it does cause those same shells were redone.

Teller/Findlay etc were hit very hard. There are photos on the internet from those areas.

Park ave/3rd ave were wrecked up to the 180's as well.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
5,503 posts, read 17,193,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrepont7731 View Post
It could have something to do with the areas themselves historically. University Heights wasn't always a poor neighborhood. Some of these areas of the Bronx were middle to upper class. We've had discussions about why the Bronx has so few upper class residents. Well a lot of them were pushed out by things like the Cross Bronx Expressway. Much of the South Bronx was relatively poor even when it was white, especially if we exclude the Grand Concourse, which was built for middle class families back in the day. With that said, the white flight started in the South Bronx and then moved north, so the South Bronx really endured much of the arson for longer as a result. When the whites fled they usually fled further north or left the Bronx entirely. White flight hit further north later on though, which likely spared the amount of arson that occurred and its duration.

University Heights was mainly middle class white families that would eventually flee as whites did in the South Bronx.
This. By the time University Heights got hit, the West Farms, Charlotte street, Mott Haven, Melrose etc were already dead and gone with. No one wanted to save the West Farms. When the arson came west, people actually did try to save the neighborhood. They had enough, and wanted to stop it right there. Developers came and bought alot of buildings. Even north of Fordham, a lot of buildings that were in bad shape were redone. If it wasn't for this, the fires would have spread way north of Fordham road, and the white flight would have continued.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
5,503 posts, read 17,193,948 times
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165th and College
Attached Thumbnails
Which Bronx neighborhoods were hit hardest by the arson wave?-robertronan15-165thstandcollegeave.jpg  
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
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Also keep in mind that Morris Heights has one of the highest percentage of NYCHA in the city, despite not having any housing development, because NYCHA bought all those messed up buildings and converted them in housing. That is how many shells of buildings Morris Heights has.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:11 PM
 
11,493 posts, read 5,547,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMario View Post
Many if not all of the buildings in West Farms were bulldozed, and new houses were built on them.

On the west side, not as many of the buildings were bulldozed, and alot of the developers put money into rehabilitating the buildings.

Although in the worst set of photos there (the grand/aqueduct/harrison photos) there is a large swath of new private homes. Also on University ave after W 174th, another block of new construction.

If no one bought the buildings, they were bulldozed. A lot of West Farms/Longwood were still vacant lots well into the 90's and 2000's, until a developer bought the sites.

I had read an article, which I can't find, how developers bought buildings on Davidson ave in the 1980's and rehabilitated them.

But I am in agreement with you, the west Farms, charlotte street, longwood area was the worst hit, because the entire neighborhood went down, and there were more large swaths of vacant lots.

That doesn't mean that west of Jerome wasn't hurt by the fires. It looks the way it does cause those same shells were redone.

Teller/Findlay etc were hit very hard. There are photos on the internet from those areas.

Park ave/3rd ave were wrecked up to the 180's as well.

University Ave on the blocks you listed:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8526...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8553...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8600...7i13312!8i6656

Teller:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8337...7i13312!8i6656


https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8358...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8389...7i13312!8i6656

Findlay:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8303...7i13312!8i6656



https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8340...7i13312!8i6656


https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8359...7i13312!8i6656

Maybe the single family houses in the first University Ave pic replaced arson, but I'm guessing not because they don't look like cheap POS


Yeah I know Park and 3rd were hit pretty hard. Going East, that looks like where things started to get real bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMario View Post
This. By the time University Heights got hit, the West Farms, Charlotte street, Mott Haven, Melrose etc were already dead and gone with. No one wanted to save the West Farms. When the arson came west, people actually did try to save the neighborhood. They had enough, and wanted to stop it right there. Developers came and bought alot of buildings. Even north of Fordham, a lot of buildings that were in bad shape were redone. If it wasn't for this, the fires would have spread way north of Fordham road, and the white flight would have continued.

Weren't these West Bronx neighborhoods mostly void of white people by the time the arson hit?

And do you know if there are any large chunks of the 2 train neighborhoods that survived, besides the ones North of of West Farms?

And do you know if the West Bronx was economically better off than the Central Bronx at the time, even if it was also lower income?
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:13 PM
 
11,493 posts, read 5,547,302 times
Reputation: 5949
Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrepont7731 View Post
Here's your answer right here. University Heights was a neighborhood that whites escaped to originally:

"But from the 1920s onwards, the area’s reputation took a turn; the depression hit the area hard. As statuses changed, many of the Jews relocated to University Heights, Tremont, Grand Concourse, or Pelham parkway. By the end of the century, the once middle-class neighborhoods in the South Bronx were characterized as working and lower middle class areas."

It makes a lot of sense because what started happening is whites moved further north because the South Bronx even before arson set in was starting to become less desirable. When the development of Co-op City came about that's when even more Jews left the South Bronx because Co-op City was viewed as much nicer. Pelham Parkway to this day still has a Jewish presence.

"The Mitchell-Lama law was passed in 1955. The legislation aimed to build state-subsidized, middle-income housing. Co-op city caused White Jewish residents to leave the Grand Concourse Neighborhood, leaving vacancies and worsening slums in their wake. The Mitchell Lama policies also had an enclavizaton effect on the urban poor by siphoning off more affluent residents out of disenfranchised neighborhoods."


https://wp.nyu.edu/urbanpracticesen2...-20th-century/

As for your other comment, understand that these landlords were hurting. They had bills to pay and their properties were basically worthless. It's the same thing that happens to homeowners. When one person forecloses, it can lead to a ton of them in the same area because the properties start to lose their value to the point to where you owe more money than the property is worth. Unless you were a landlord with deep pockets, holding on to a property with other properties that were burnt out just made no financial sense. Who was going to rent them when there was nothing around there? Landlords back then weren't these large corporate types. Many were small landlords who really depended on having tenants to collect rent from to pay their mortgages. They simply couldn't hold out long enough. Not only that but the people moving in were not middle class as the previous residents were, so they couldn't charge the same rents as they were before, which again devalued their property and how much money they could make.
But even if it seemed like it made fiscal sense to burn down those buildings at the time, these were people's homes. I don't think you can morally justify what happened, and the buildings that did survive would eventually be worth a lot of money. It didn't even take that long for the city to improve, by the 90s crime was going down a lot.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:15 PM
 
Location: New York, NY
7,548 posts, read 2,685,297 times
Reputation: 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995 View Post
University Ave on the blocks you listed:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8526...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8553...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8600...7i13312!8i6656

Teller:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8337...7i13312!8i6656


https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8358...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8389...7i13312!8i6656

Findlay:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8303...7i13312!8i6656



https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8340...7i13312!8i6656


https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8359...7i13312!8i6656

Maybe the single family houses in the first University Ave pic replaced arson, but I'm guessing not because they don't look like cheap POS


Yeah I know Park and 3rd were hit pretty hard. Going East, that looks like where things started to get real bad.




Weren't these West Bronx neighborhoods mostly void of white people by the time the arson hit?

And do you know if the West Bronx was economically better off than the Central Bronx at the time, even if it was also lower income?
We already talked about the West Bronx being middle class areas for longer periods of time. When the arson hit, white flight occurred of course, but it hadn't been going as long as it had in the South Bronx. The West Bronx consisted of areas that whites were escaping TO FROM the South Bronx.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:18 PM
 
11,493 posts, read 5,547,302 times
Reputation: 5949
Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrepont7731 View Post
We already talked about the West Bronx being middle class areas for longer periods of time. When the arson hit, white flight occurred of course, but it hadn't been going as long as it had in the South Bronx. The West Bronx consisted of areas that whites were escaping TO FROM the South Bronx.
You mentioned whites escaping to the Northwest Bronx and Co-op city, but I didn't know you meant the neighborhoods along the Grand Concourse.
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