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Old 07-20-2018, 11:20 AM
 
9,882 posts, read 7,681,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
That’s not true even with a broad definition of instruction
Completely true, at least as it pertains to me. I got all these damn machines creating all this extra work for me. For once it would be nice to get a machine that can actually read my mind so that I don't have to do all this research first, and can just get on with it.
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Old 07-20-2018, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
19,086 posts, read 32,666,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Dale View Post
Completely true, at least as it pertains to me. I got all these damn machines creating all this extra work for me. For once it would be nice to get a machine that can actually read my mind so that I don't have to do all this research first, and can just get on with it.
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:39 PM
 
9,952 posts, read 8,441,593 times
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While all true, there are questions of scale. I tend to think there are more blue collar jobs that are automatable vs while collar. But I'm sure there are plenty of both that could go away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
The funny thing is that there's also a good number of service type and blue collar jobs that are pretty hard to automate. It's basically jobs with less constrained problem spaces that also have some need for a wide range of localized sensory input and mechanical output which do not necessarily pay that well which are expensive to automate (developing, manufacturing, and maintaining something as complex as Rosie in the Jetsons is extremely hard and expensive).

And it's not true that jobs that pay well generally require a fair amount of intelligence, original thought, etc. at least not in the same way that we commonly use to describe people. AI and the processing behind it, sensory input and processing, and mechanical output has quite different strengths and weaknesses and cost/benefits from people so the idea that white collar professionals in general is somehow more buffered is pretty silly. With white collar professionals, their lack of manual work requiring physical dexterity/adaptability and lack of location-sensitivity and their currently generally higher wages makes them an especially appealing, and in many ways, simple target for automation.
Again true, but again, it's a question of scale. Unlike in the past, I see this wave of technology change eliminating vastly more jobs than it creates.
Quote:

New jobs will arise from all this, as it has currently with things like social media management teams, but the question is how quickly they arise versus how quickly others are rendered obsolete, and what we deem their relative worth to be and how we legislate.
I think it's the matter that the people pushing the minimum wage increase are inadvertently dooming the workers they're trying to help, and in a very predictable way.
Quote:

Judging from the attitude of some of the posters here (and of course, people in general elsewhere) where people are borderline sneering at minimum wage workers and the near celebration of automating out their jobs, there's going to be a lot of people with hard pills to swallow in the near future.
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:48 PM
 
Location: NY
1,170 posts, read 264,601 times
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At $15 an hour 40 hours a week $31,700 a year figure in tips at $30 a night or $7,800 tip money for a total of 39,000 a year?
Of that $39,000 subtract $18,000 a year (that's $1,500 a month rent somewhere in Brooklyn,Queens or Bronx) and another $1,300 a year for
a metro card for a measly $19,700 net take home of $378 a week. And that's off the books. I see these poor slobs living on .69 cents box of
macaroni and bottled water at $3.00 a case! No wonder SNAP is alive and well and no one is letting go of any Section H apartments. You just can't live on that. The math don't add up. These type jobs should be delegated to retirees who need something just to keep busy' not the
young families trying to make it out there. The city should set aside monies for new job infrastructure for these young men and women paying
$50,000 a year. But you and I know that'll never happen.


you gotta feel sorry......
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:50 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,111 posts, read 21,729,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
While all true, there are questions of scale. I tend to think there are more blue collar jobs that are automatable vs while collar. But I'm sure there are plenty of both that could go away.


Again true, but again, it's a question of scale. Unlike in the past, I see this wave of technology change eliminating vastly more jobs than it creates.

I think it's the matter that the people pushing the minimum wage increase are inadvertently dooming the workers they're trying to help, and in a very predictable way.
I disagree that there were/are more blue collar jobs that were easily automated. There was a good deal of clerical, secretarial, accounting and administrative work that had basically been made redundant fairly rapidly with the advent of computers and the digitization of much of that work. The difference might be more that there were more additional other white collar or pink collar jobs that arose with those eliminations. And unlike the series of large single event eliminations of blue collar jobs when it comes to things like factory automation, a lot of white collar jobs were somewhat more gradually though persistently eliminated.

The modern difference for white collar work elimination through automation is that the ubiquity and networked nature of our devices means that there can be much, much faster wholesale elimination of white collar jobs than in the past and right now there is a lot of research being poured into not just defining problem sets and solving them, but also work on a higher order of operation where we are trying to program for the ability to recognize and define the problem sets to be solved.

I agree that this raising of the minimum wage is likely of limited good in the near future. It sidesteps the actual issue of what automation can do. It simply puts a temporary nice veneer on the issue just as much as a not so nice veneer is used when people start foaming at the mouth about trade agreements and NAFTA for factory jobs when automation did a hell of a lot more (both in regards to effects on domestic production lines and also in how it made it so easy to port jobs elsewhere as a tool is a tool is a tool in those cases).

Regardless, the original article was still misleading and dumb because it focused on a very narrow part of what's hitting a lot of restaurants in the city these days.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 07-20-2018 at 02:11 PM..
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:53 PM
 
64,540 posts, read 66,100,109 times
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there are ways . you can live golden girl style if need be . minimum wage jobs were not supposed to support adults once their careers were started , nor is it written everyone is supposed to live alone and not roommate style if needed
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Old 07-20-2018, 02:13 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,111 posts, read 21,729,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
there are ways . you can live golden girl style if need be . minimum wage jobs were not supposed to support adults once their careers were started , nor is it written everyone is supposed to live alone and not roommate style if needed
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a lot of people working minimum wage jobs aren't living it up or living in their own pad. I came here without much and roomed with a lot of people, and even then, when rent was far less pricey, there were plenty of roommates squeaking by on minimum wage jobs living several to an apartment, including shared rooms. This minimum wage is a very temporary reprieve.

Then again, there are a lot of other cities without the same factors as NYC. I think people should move to Chicago and Philadelphia if they're young and struggling (easier said than done, of course). Maybe Cleveland! At least in the very short near future timeframe, those are a lot more economically viable cities for them.
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Old 07-20-2018, 02:16 PM
 
64,540 posts, read 66,100,109 times
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people make do with whatever they have . we all have no choice so we do whatever it takes to make things work . anything beyond living in a tent in a warm climate is a want , not a need .

nyc appeals to lower income workers more than most cities .

we have an extensive transportation system .

lots of low end jobs

ethnic neighborhoods where they can live with their own .

generous welfare and social perks , etc.

nyc tends to run higher unemployment numbers than other cities because we do attract more lower wage earners according to crain's .
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Old 07-20-2018, 02:18 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,111 posts, read 21,729,745 times
Reputation: 10216
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
people make do with whatever they have . we all have no choice so we do whatever it takes to make things work . anything beyond living in a tent in a warm climate is a want , not a need .
Yea, I agree with that to an extent. It's just that "nor is it written everyone is supposed to live alone and not roommate style if needed" seemed to imply that these people weren't already living golden girls style with roommates.
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Old 07-20-2018, 02:20 PM
 
64,540 posts, read 66,100,109 times
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like i said , most people will do whatever it takes for the most part to live on what they have . the same topic comes up in the retirement section and about how seniors are living on small social security checks . they just do , they make it work .

we have retirees living on small ss checks and retirees living on 6 figure incomes .
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