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Old 07-18-2018, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn, New York
3,231 posts, read 3,477,006 times
Reputation: 2850

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Not necessarily no minimum wage nor a return to slavery or even an expansion of wage slavery. The question is if raising if to 15 dollars an hour across the board ultimately makes sense.
What people don't understand is that some jobs simply are not worth $15 an hour. These jobs would be either outsourced, automated, or the difference in cost would be passed on to the consumer. It would significantly raise unemployment rates among less educated/skilled people - the poor and youth.
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:07 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
7,549 posts, read 2,688,620 times
Reputation: 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
What people don't understand is that some jobs simply are not worth $15 an hour. These jobs would be either outsourced, automated, or the difference in cost would be passed on to the consumer. It would significantly raise unemployment rates among less educated/skilled people - the poor and youth.
And this is the reality that people don't want to discuss.
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:18 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,115 posts, read 21,737,714 times
Reputation: 10216
Quote:
Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
Rising rents and healthcare costs are factors but don’t try to deny that an added cost of the min wage is not a factor. Anything that adds to the cost of doing business is a factor in dooming a business. And as for your dumb vacancy tax idea, it is another band aid Leftist idea that will not attack the root cause of the problem, which is high cost of living/high taxes but just make matters worse.

If you put a tax on the landlord, they’d just pass that added cost onto their tenants, be it residential or commercial. Then the businesses will then be forced to pass it along to their customers and then because of high prices, they either buy online or buy less, which then hurts the local businesses. It then becomes a vicious cycle.

You Leftists don’t think any more than one step ahead. Everything you guys propose is for the feel good momentary effects and votes. Tax the rich! Free healthcare, free housing, free money for the poor!
Who said that I denied minimum wage is not a factor? Are you only selectively literate? What I said was that it's hard to determine how large of a factor it is, because there are obviously other ones that may have been larger in magnitude.

I obviously don't think a vacancy tax is a dumb idea for residential or commercial estate, but part of that stems from looking at what it does in other cities. We've gone over this before and you simply refuse to actually address the argument. Even on a first principles argument, your idea of how that tax on the landlord gets passed on to their tenants and then the customer is pretty loose. Certainly taxes have that effect, but if the idea is that the tax is on properties that are left vacant for a long while, then what tenant is getting that passed on to them if it's vacant and there is no tenant? If there is no tenant, what customer does that cost get passed on to? I can kind of see those costs being amortized into a larger tenant pool outside of that property, but that's a bit further out in chain and the easier work for a landlord would simply to be to fill that vacancy. Now if this city were bombed out and everyone was leaving, then of course, this would be a bad idea and there would either need to be exemptions or repeal of this, but that's not the actual case right now is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
What people don't understand is that some jobs simply are not worth $15 an hour. These jobs would be either outsourced, automated, or the difference in cost would be passed on to the consumer. It would significantly raise unemployment rates among less educated/skilled people - the poor and youth.
Right, I'm with you on that. There are larger issues with poverty and how difficult it is to move out of poverty when someone is born into it, but I'm not convinced simply raising the minimum wage for all jobs is really an effective way of doing so.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 07-18-2018 at 08:35 AM..
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:24 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
7,549 posts, read 2,688,620 times
Reputation: 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Who said that I denied minimum wage is not a factor? Are you only selectively literate? What I said was that it's hard to determine how large of a factor it is, because there are obviously other ones that may have been larger in magnitude.

I obviously don't think a vacancy tax is a dumb idea for residential or commercial estate, but part of that stems from looking at what it does in other cities. We've gone over this before and you simply refuse to actually address the argument. Even on a first principles argument, your idea of how that tax on the landlord gets passed on to their tenants and then the customer is pretty loose. Certainly taxes have that effect, but if the idea is that the tax is on properties that are left vacant for a long while, then what tenant is getting that passed on to them if it's vacant and there is no tenant? If there is no tenant, what customer does that cost get passed on to? I can kind of see those costs being amortized into a larger tenant pool outside of that property, but that's a bit further out in chain and the easier work for a landlord would simply to be to fill that vacancy. Now if this city were bombed out and everyone was leaving, then of course, this would be a bad idea and there would either need to be exemptions or repeal of this, but that's not the actual case right now is it?
Most of these landlords have multiple properties these days, so they'll get their money back one way or another. You can't be that naïve... How many properties are out there where people are overpaying for studios, one bedrooms and the like. Not that long ago, you could get a one bedroom for $900 in the outerboroughs. Now $1400 is the floor in most places for a studio.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:16 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,408 posts, read 2,269,552 times
Reputation: 4870
^ It’s really pointless talking to OyCrumber. You can explain all the logic you want to him and then months from now, on another thread he’ll just say that you never gave any valid arguments against his dumb idea. He will just continue to peddle his nonsense regardless.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:36 AM
 
9,955 posts, read 8,445,983 times
Reputation: 5826
Give it a few years. It'll come.

The minimum wage increase is going to cost restaurants, especially bigger ones, a few hundred grand a year. That's going to create a big pot of gold for companies that can automate many basic kitchen task, which, let's be honest, are basically repetitive and don't require a lot of intelligence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
Umm yeah, I'm here like when can you start buying the robot kitchens
that cook and clean themselves

Download me a recipe quick fast
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
19,136 posts, read 32,681,385 times
Reputation: 7573
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
Give it a few years. It'll come.

The minimum wage increase is going to cost restaurants, especially bigger ones, a few hundred grand a year. That's going to create a big pot of gold for companies that can automate many basic kitchen task, which, let's be honest, are basically repetitive and don't require a lot of intelligence.
Eagerly waiting for modern technology to erase my needs for most people that I have to pay. Sounds messed up but it is what it is.
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:04 AM
 
9,955 posts, read 8,445,983 times
Reputation: 5826
They may just not be able to do that. Notice the fact that there are a lot of apartments being built. It's starting to turn into a renters market. Notice there are a lot of empty stores. While still high, retail rents have topped and are coming down. So, no, the LLs couldn't just stick the cost to their renters, because their renters would ditch them, and cut a deal with another LL who needs to get cash flow from an empty property.

If there weren't so many empty properties, it would be different. But if there weren't so many empty properties, there wouldn't be the need to push the LLs to fill them. Below a certain vacancy percentage, it any vacancy tax should cut out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antinimby View Post

If you put a tax on the landlord, they’d just pass that added cost onto their tenants, be it residential or commercial. Then the businesses will then be forced to pass it along to their customers and then because of high prices, they either buy online or buy less, which then hurts the local businesses. It then becomes a vicious cycle.

You Leftists don’t think any more than one step ahead. Everything you guys propose is for the feel good momentary effects and votes. Tax the rich! Free healthcare, free housing, free money for the poor!
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:05 AM
 
9,955 posts, read 8,445,983 times
Reputation: 5826
It's probably been happening already, you just didn't notice. How much more of what you do is done over the internet, or behind the scenes by computer, than it was 10-15 years ago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
Eagerly waiting for modern technology to erase my needs for most people that I have to pay. Sounds messed up but it is what it is.
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Old 07-18-2018, 12:08 PM
 
43 posts, read 15,137 times
Reputation: 77
The true minimum wage is always zero.
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