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Old 09-23-2018, 08:39 AM
 
67 posts, read 27,692 times
Reputation: 179

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Quote:
Originally Posted by toby2016 View Post
Yes, unfortunately there are some Asian students who go to majority Black/Latino schools that do get picked on, but there are also some that actually get along with the Blacks/Latinos very easily. It depends on the person and what schools. Bullying is everywhere regardless of race or what school it is. You are aware there is bullying within even Asian students. It may not be a racial thing, sometimes it is just plain jealousy and wanting to feel superior than the other person. Especially since the Asians are so jealous of each other to want to be smarter than the other person and want to look better than the other person that they talk down on the others just to make them look and feel good and some of them try to dominate everything and will sabotage other students just to ruin their reputations or lower their grades. Just because you have not seen teen pregnancy in specialized high schools, it does not mean it does not exist. Maybe some of them were smart enough to go to clinics to get an abortion without letting their parents know and there are now clinics that allow the teenage girls the right to not have any family members know or they could have transferred out before anyone knew. There are always students transferring from different schools.

Just for your information, not all majority Black/Latino student body High Schools are all in Latino/Black neighborhoods. In almost all NYC white neighborhoods, the regular public high schools are mostly a student majority of Latino/Blacks and although they are not the best performing schools in the NYC, they are still much better than the High Schools that are in the Black/Latino neighborhoods. The Asian students that go to majority Black/Latino high schools mostly go to the ones in white neighborhoods, many in Manhattan although a few in Downtown Brooklyn areas and certain parts of Queens. They are not going to go to the high schools in the Black/Latino neighborhoods, which are much worse.

You know the reason why the regular high school students in the white neighborhoods are mostly Latinos/Blacks, but not from the local neighborhoods? You should know and probably you do, because many of the Blacks/Latinos do not want to go to schools in their neighborhoods, which the schools and their areas are in bad shape and dangerous so they attend the high schools in the white neighborhoods to get away from all these problems and usually they are likely to want to get a decent passing grade at least if not be a straight A student. Yes, sometimes they still bring in the problems from their neighborhoods like fights, bullying, and things of that nature, but it is still comparatively much better than the high schools in the actual Latino/Black neighborhoods. And yes, because of the influx of black/Latino students in the high schools in the white neighborhoods, many of the local white residents do not want their children in these schools and send them off to private schools. The Asians that go to a majority Black/Latino high school in the white neighborhoods are more likely to get along with most of the students to some extent since most of the Blacks/Latinos that are going to high schools in white neighborhoods are trying get away from the dangerous problems in their areas and know that their zone schools are terrible and want to get a good education although they may not always aim for being a straight A student, but of course there will always be some that are not so nice and are bullies and are disruptive.

The worse high schools in NYC are mostly in actual Black/Latino neighborhoods and you will almost never see an Asian student in a Black/Latino neighborhood attending high school. The regular high schools in the white neighborhoods are mostly Black/Latino students, but they are still better than the ones in the Black/Latino communities although not always the best academically performing, so they kind of come in the middle. Not too great, but not the worse. Yet, of course the elite high schools are the top performing schools.

About your statement on pushing yourself to want to go to the top elite schools, yes you are right. It is up to the individual to want it or not and not necessarily have to be the parents pushing them and to try to look for the resources out there including the books to prepare for shsat. But do you know that the bookstores are also easily available in the Chinese American communities, which carry these academic advanced placement prep exams? You probably already know they are easily available. But in the Latino and Black communities, like tutoring programs, the bookstores are also not as readily available within convenience with these kinds of book resources as well in their communities. So yes, for many of the Blacks/Latinos it may be far for them to have to travel to Barnes and Noble to pick up a book like this and many of them are living in bad situations where they do not have the time or convenience because many of them are living in bad situations where they are needed in the household to care for their siblings sometimes even cousins because their mother or father may not have time to be in the home and have to work and very often it is a single parent household and they may not always necessarily become teenage parents. The Asians particularly the Chinese do not have to travel far as they can easily get them in their own enclaves and they are not suffering with the same issues like the Black/Latino communities with single parenthood and needing to be the family caretaker, so they have the time to study all they want including the easy convenience and time to go to a book store or to travel to one by subway or bus.

For many Asians who go to a majority Black/Latino high school, at first they may have a hard time understanding their situations even getting along, but slowly some of them eventually learn to get along and begin to learn about the social problems that go on in the Latino/Black communities and they become more open minded and sometimes it can make them even begin to realize about the social problems going on in their own communities that are never spoken of out loud and they sometimes begin to learn to speak their minds as well. Unfortunately, in the Asian communities, their social skills are so conservative to the point that even discussing their own minds or opinions even only little things is an outrage and forbidden and as a result, social issues in Asian communities are not really discussed or protested and what is even worse is a lot of the American generation Asians that become college educated forget their communities and move out and do not even come back to invest in the communities they grew up to help resolve/reduce social problems going on in the Asian American communities and not even speak about it. Especially with the affordable housing crisis going on in the city, but look at what is happening. All of these affordable housing programs being built to help with this crisis are mainly in areas that are gentrifying and getting an increase white populations or in Latino/Black communities, but in the Asian American communities, they are excluded. Partly it is the government officials stereotyping Asians that they do not need help and thinking they are all rich, but a lot of the successful Asian property owners do not want to participate to invest in helping out their own communities to bring a certain number of apartments that can be tax credits and affordable rents. The Asians often do not really help each other when it comes to social problems going on. They only help when there is money involved. Even in a lot of the white neighborhoods, which is now getting an increase of residents that need affordable housing programs are also excluded and it is the same thing. Their own property developers in the areas do not want to help their own and a lot of the whites do not want to help each other as well. A lot of the Asians and Whites are all for themselves.

Look, for many Asians it may be difficult to break away from their own groups in the beginning, but sometimes it can become a good thing because they can become more open minded and learn about other cultures including understanding more about social problems going on in the city and different neighborhoods. A lot of Asians are very ignorant about the social problems going or very limited in knowing there are issues going on in the city and society and maybe by some of them being in majority Black/Latino schools, it can make them wake up and realize the social issues going on and not stay in their bubbles all the time.

Like I have said, I do not agree with De Blasio's method of diversifying the elite schools. I agree it still should be given to the actual very talented high grade students and there should be no quota system and the shsat exam should stay where it is, opening up the availability of the educational resources in the Latino/Black neighborhoods tutoring center and yes including book stores that carry these kinds of prep exam books can help increase more straight A and academically well performing students including more wanting to be in these kinds of elite schools. I may have exaggerated about a tutoring program on every block in the Asian community, but there more conveniently available or concentrated within closer distances than in the Black/Latino communities.

You need to understand something about the Latino/Black communities. They suffered a long time of discrimination from the dominant white society and Blacks were not given the equal opportunities to education and jobs and they suffered hundreds of years of slavery. Even after abolishing slavery in USA, blacks were still not given equal opportunities to quality education/jobs like the whites and were not allowed to integrate. As a result many blacks were driven into very poor situations, racial discrimination, poverty and limited opportunities to great jobs that to some point it became part of the norm of their communities and even though the policies to prevent discrimination is now enforced, many of the black communities unfortunately are still suffering with that influence left behind and city agencies still do not always invest in resources needed for their communities and many continue to feel they cannot have a better educational/economic background than what they have right now. The Latinos may not have been in USA during the 1800s or earlier, but in Latin America a lot of African slaves were imported and there were native American slaves, which lasted for a long time. Now in Latin America, when slavery was abolished, there were no policies to ban them from integrating with other races including whites, so this is why you see a mix different varieties of skin colors like rainbow, but the unfortunately the Latinos that are not purely white were and are still discriminated along with the fact that their countries are still not fully developed and have corrupt governments and are suffering with the same influence of educational/economic barriers that the Black American communities are still suffering with and when they arrive into the USA's Latin American enclaves, they continue to be under that influence thinking they cannot have it better than what they have, although the Latino communities usually have it slightly better than the Black communities in terms of academics and jobs/businesses, but not by much more. So it is still going to take a while for their communities to fully realize the resources and educational opportunities out there to help them with economic mobility, but the government also has to step in as well.

There were always Chinese as early as the 1800s during the continental railroad construction/gold rush era, and yes they did suffer horrible discrimination, but their numbers were very small and mostly men and the Chinese exclusion act came immediately, so their populations remained small for almost another 100 years that even if you collected all of USA's Chinese population from all around that lasted from the 1800s until mid 1900s, it would only be the size of the East Village and overlap a little bit into Lower East Side maybe. However, most of the Chinese and other Asians came post 1965 and civil rights era and afterwards when immigration policies were expanded to allow immigrants from Asia, Latin America, Caribbean and even Africa to arrive. By this time, racial and ethnic relations although still had issues, but were much better than they were back in the early 1900s, so most of the Chinese and Asians that arrived into the USA and their future generations did not suffer the same discrimination like the Blacks did for 100s of years and comparatively it was easier for them to get a good education and get a good job and even own great businesses coupled with their values of education and hard work coming from China. However, it does not mean they do not suffer with discrimination, which they still do, but they did not have the same horrific experiences like the Blacks with slavery, Jim Crow Laws, and encountering the KKKs in the south.
Comparing who has it worse and regulating morality is subjective and downright disrespectful. You talk as if the immigrants who came from Asia in the 1950s to 1980s come from perfect countries where things are peaceful. Just because the majority of the current Asian Americans didn't suffer 3 centuries of oppression, doesn't mean they didn't suffer at all.

China went through a 100 years of unfortunate events, just like how the Middle East countries are right now. Opium Wars, Opium Wars 2, Taiping Rebellion, Boxer Rebellion, overthrown of the Qing dynasty, Sino-Japanese War, World War 2, Chinese Civil War, and the Great Revolution. The majority of Chinese immigrants who came from China aren't college educated. There were also loss of culture due to upheaval of customs. Not to mention immigrants parents live truncated lives in America due to language barrier and cultural difference.

And not all Asians come from China. Tons of Chinese diaspora in Southeast Asian countries like Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Cambodia were refugee fleeing China in the 19th century due to how bad the conditions were. It wasn't that long ago that China had more people in poverty than the continent of Africa. Not to mention tons of these countries had war.

Refugees from the Vietnam War especially the Boat people aren't even high school educated, they come to America with no wealth, and are told they are better off than African Americans. These people survived Thai pirates, starvation, being out at sea, drinking their own ****, getting robbed, raped, etc. War is worse than segregation in my ones. That is why subjectively quantifying who has it worse makes no sense to me.

Vietnam had the Vietnam War that spread to Laos and Cambodia. Cambodia also had the Khmer Rouge not that long ago. Korea had the Korean War, China had the Civil War, and Japan had World War 2. Not to mention Indonesian independence, Burmese infighting that still occurs today. The richest country in Asia in the 1960s was Philippines. This means many Asian immigrants back at that time were fleeing from poverty.

This is exactly why the immigrant parents today still have negative thoughts of their home countries because how bad it was, and they tell their kids that they are better off in America and having to study hard so they aren't in Asia like everyone else.

Since Americans don't know history that well, Asians don't appear out of nowhere with no suffering, land on the shores of America, and proceed to overtake the African Americans thus pissing them off. You talk about Chinese being ignorant of Latino and African American's plight and social problems. How many of those communities know about Asian's PTSD due to war and the language barrier as well as social problems and isolation.

You should know that Asians did face discrimination, the ones in America in the 1800s and 1900s who barely had kids due to miscegenation laws and banning females from coming over from Asia and then Chinese Exclusion Act for over 100 years. Mass lynchings, driving Chinese men out of towns, sunset towns where they hunted down Chinese caught after dark in the towns. That's why minorities congregate and form communities such as Chinatown.

Chinese can learn about others after they gets their problems solved first. How can they help others when they themselves have to fix their own situations first. Chinese immigrant parents owning laundrymats aren't going to yield because they hear African Americans had slavery therefore their daughter cannot go to Stuy.

Single motherhood is those communities' problems and shouldn't be a factor to impact on specialized high school and education in New York in general. If single motherhood is accounted for, shouldn't Asian kids be in the same situation since their parents are non-existent due to working long hours? You can't quantify morality and who has it worse. That is why DeBlasio can't say "those rich white kids at Stuy are the majority". That is why he had to phrase it in a way to make it about race without using race.

You say Asian Americans get rich, improve status, and move out. Well, why do African Americans who become middle class move to Laurelton and Rosedale and Cambria Heights and not stay in Bed Stuy or Mott Haven? The Chinese neighborhoods tend to cater towards new immigrants and elderly foreign born Asians. Asians improve and they move on, they don't linger around. If you are born in what is consider a poor area, why would you want to stay in that poor area? Improving one's status and surrounding is a crime, then Asians are guilty. The kids aren't going to live in the same area and work the same jobs as their parents. If they have debt, they want to get out of debt, not swim in it.

Since Latinos and African Americans don't value education as much as Asians do, then Asians having tutoring centers and bookstores aren't even a problem. The Hasidic community has their own schools and bookstores selling books in Yiddish. So they should be penalized too? The reason why bookstores and tutoring don't exist to the extent in Latino and African American communities is because they don't value education, and therefore its not profitable to exist in those neighborhoods. But at the same time, there is something called mass transit, and Student Metrocard is free to use with 3 swipes.

Chinese kids do have to take care of their siblings because their parents aren't home. And everything else you listed about, minus the teenage mother pregnancy. Guess what? The parents throw the kids in cram school as daycare centers or they have the grandparents tend to the kids. Single motherhood and teenage pregnancy shouldn't fall on Chinese people's shoulders or Indian immigrant's shoulders.

Speaking of Indian, there are a ton of Guyanese Indians who came from indentured servants, and they aren't privileged at all, well they could put that they are Latino and not Asian, lucky them.

You do admit that Latino majority and African American majority high schools sucks. Why would anyone want to DOWNGRADE their child's education when the teenager is capable of handling specialized high schools? Imagine your kid is qualify to have a full course meal at a expensive restaurant, then told he or she has to go to a cheap restaurant and eat a half eaten cold meal. The Clark doll experiment talks about how African American kids feel inferior in a segregated but equal environment which influenced the Brown vs Board Supreme Court decision. So that would mean that the Asian kid would feel inferior going to a crappier school that everyone knows is crappy, going to a school people are fleeing from. Telling the kid oh, the school isn't that bad because the Black/Latino majority school in a white neighborhood is better than the Black/Latino majority school in a black/latino neighborhood. That is literally like Rosa Parks on a Montgomery bus where they have to give up their opportunity for someone else. You are telling these kids to a exceptional at a ****ty school. And there is no distinction between whether it's in a black or white neighborhood, these Asian kids strive for the best. They would rather be a small fish in a big pond than a big fish in a small pond.
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Old 09-23-2018, 04:17 PM
 
187 posts, read 119,786 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumbleboom View Post
Comparing who has it worse and regulating morality is subjective and downright disrespectful. You talk as if the immigrants who came from Asia in the 1950s to 1980s come from perfect countries where things are peaceful. Just because the majority of the current Asian Americans didn't suffer 3 centuries of oppression, doesn't mean they didn't suffer at all.

China went through a 100 years of unfortunate events, just like how the Middle East countries are right now. Opium Wars, Opium Wars 2, Taiping Rebellion, Boxer Rebellion, overthrown of the Qing dynasty, Sino-Japanese War, World War 2, Chinese Civil War, and the Great Revolution. The majority of Chinese immigrants who came from China aren't college educated. There were also loss of culture due to upheaval of customs. Not to mention immigrants parents live truncated lives in America due to language barrier and cultural difference.

And not all Asians come from China. Tons of Chinese diaspora in Southeast Asian countries like Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Cambodia were refugee fleeing China in the 19th century due to how bad the conditions were. It wasn't that long ago that China had more people in poverty than the continent of Africa. Not to mention tons of these countries had war.

Refugees from the Vietnam War especially the Boat people aren't even high school educated, they come to America with no wealth, and are told they are better off than African Americans. These people survived Thai pirates, starvation, being out at sea, drinking their own ****, getting robbed, raped, etc. War is worse than segregation in my ones. That is why subjectively quantifying who has it worse makes no sense to me.

Vietnam had the Vietnam War that spread to Laos and Cambodia. Cambodia also had the Khmer Rouge not that long ago. Korea had the Korean War, China had the Civil War, and Japan had World War 2. Not to mention Indonesian independence, Burmese infighting that still occurs today. The richest country in Asia in the 1960s was Philippines. This means many Asian immigrants back at that time were fleeing from poverty.

This is exactly why the immigrant parents today still have negative thoughts of their home countries because how bad it was, and they tell their kids that they are better off in America and having to study hard so they aren't in Asia like everyone else.

Since Americans don't know history that well, Asians don't appear out of nowhere with no suffering, land on the shores of America, and proceed to overtake the African Americans thus pissing them off. You talk about Chinese being ignorant of Latino and African American's plight and social problems. How many of those communities know about Asian's PTSD due to war and the language barrier as well as social problems and isolation.

You should know that Asians did face discrimination, the ones in America in the 1800s and 1900s who barely had kids due to miscegenation laws and banning females from coming over from Asia and then Chinese Exclusion Act for over 100 years. Mass lynchings, driving Chinese men out of towns, sunset towns where they hunted down Chinese caught after dark in the towns. That's why minorities congregate and form communities such as Chinatown.

Chinese can learn about others after they gets their problems solved first. How can they help others when they themselves have to fix their own situations first. Chinese immigrant parents owning laundrymats aren't going to yield because they hear African Americans had slavery therefore their daughter cannot go to Stuy.

Single motherhood is those communities' problems and shouldn't be a factor to impact on specialized high school and education in New York in general. If single motherhood is accounted for, shouldn't Asian kids be in the same situation since their parents are non-existent due to working long hours? You can't quantify morality and who has it worse. That is why DeBlasio can't say "those rich white kids at Stuy are the majority". That is why he had to phrase it in a way to make it about race without using race.

You say Asian Americans get rich, improve status, and move out. Well, why do African Americans who become middle class move to Laurelton and Rosedale and Cambria Heights and not stay in Bed Stuy or Mott Haven? The Chinese neighborhoods tend to cater towards new immigrants and elderly foreign born Asians. Asians improve and they move on, they don't linger around. If you are born in what is consider a poor area, why would you want to stay in that poor area? Improving one's status and surrounding is a crime, then Asians are guilty. The kids aren't going to live in the same area and work the same jobs as their parents. If they have debt, they want to get out of debt, not swim in it.

Since Latinos and African Americans don't value education as much as Asians do, then Asians having tutoring centers and bookstores aren't even a problem. The Hasidic community has their own schools and bookstores selling books in Yiddish. So they should be penalized too? The reason why bookstores and tutoring don't exist to the extent in Latino and African American communities is because they don't value education, and therefore its not profitable to exist in those neighborhoods. But at the same time, there is something called mass transit, and Student Metrocard is free to use with 3 swipes.

Chinese kids do have to take care of their siblings because their parents aren't home. And everything else you listed about, minus the teenage mother pregnancy. Guess what? The parents throw the kids in cram school as daycare centers or they have the grandparents tend to the kids. Single motherhood and teenage pregnancy shouldn't fall on Chinese people's shoulders or Indian immigrant's shoulders.

Speaking of Indian, there are a ton of Guyanese Indians who came from indentured servants, and they aren't privileged at all, well they could put that they are Latino and not Asian, lucky them.

You do admit that Latino majority and African American majority high schools sucks. Why would anyone want to DOWNGRADE their child's education when the teenager is capable of handling specialized high schools? Imagine your kid is qualify to have a full course meal at a expensive restaurant, then told he or she has to go to a cheap restaurant and eat a half eaten cold meal. The Clark doll experiment talks about how African American kids feel inferior in a segregated but equal environment which influenced the Brown vs Board Supreme Court decision. So that would mean that the Asian kid would feel inferior going to a crappier school that everyone knows is crappy, going to a school people are fleeing from. Telling the kid oh, the school isn't that bad because the Black/Latino majority school in a white neighborhood is better than the Black/Latino majority school in a black/latino neighborhood. That is literally like Rosa Parks on a Montgomery bus where they have to give up their opportunity for someone else. You are telling these kids to a exceptional at a ****ty school. And there is no distinction between whether it's in a black or white neighborhood, these Asian kids strive for the best. They would rather be a small fish in a big pond than a big fish in a small pond.

I am done making the argument about the school policies. But I have to correct you on something and it looks like you are not aware of this. First, I never said all the Asian immigrants came from China. I put the words Asian/Chinese together to mean the Chinese and other Asians, however most Asians in NYC are from China or Chinese descent since many of them also come from Malaysia, Singapore, and Vietnam.

When you speak of the 1800s when the Chinese came to the USA, you are basically repeating what I said in the last post as if you did not even see it. I already said they suffered bad discrimination. Yes, I am aware there were lynchings of them as well and I already know that Chinese females were not allowed or very restricted to immigrate to the USA.

I am well aware the Asians suffered a lot of wars and poverty back in their home countries and yes many fled to the USA and even Canada and other westernized countries for better opportunities to make more money and have their children get a better education.

Now with the Chinatowns that were created in 1800s, I think you already know they were still able to become economically prosperous despite the horrific discrimination they got from the white American society in the 1800s to early 1900s. This is because they were able to do trading and exporting businesses with their home countries and did not lose their roots, especially by this time the world was more globally interactive and doing businesses with more ships being available. As a result, they learned to become very good business people and make money, although not always become millionaires. Although there was a long time they could only do business with Hong Kong, which was economically prosperous when Mao Ze Dong closed China's borders in 1949. But the businesses they had mostly were to service the white customers especially with selling goods and foods and even drugs/opium, although they serviced their own people as well. They were not able to get job opportunities in White America, but they were able to do business trading back with their home countries. Some of the Chinese men came on their own for the gold rush, but some were kidnapped into building the continental railroad, but they were not barred from interacting with their families/friends in China, which was all done by mailing letters as a matter of fact because of the Chinese exclusion act, they could have easily gone back to China if they wanted because in addition to stop Chinese immigration, the act was also to discourage the Chinese in USA from staying behind and once they left, they were not allowed to come back to USA under the ban, but if they had already arrived before the ban and remained behind, they were left alone.
I never said the Asians came from perfect countries, all I meant was that because the majority of the Asians came after 1965, which by the time racial relations were much better than during the early 1900s and earlier, although I am not saying it was perfect and there were still racial/discrimination issues, most of them did not suffer the same predicaments the African Americans did for hundreds of years in USA and were not facing these barriers to quality education and jobs like the African Americans did for hundreds of years in USA, but yes there were still discrimination. So the Asians were able to navigate to getting a good quality education and careers along with their parents' strong values on education as well as there were already established Chinese businesses that continued to remain behind since the 1800s or early 1900s that provided job opportunities for the new Chinese immigrants, but it was still not easy for them to achieve their goals. Also, their communities did suffer with blockbusting and businesses/social services moving away in large numbers from their communities like the Black communities suffered with and the Asian American communities had associations with business and financial connections back to China/Hong Kong to help them transition into adapting to American life, although some of them were corrupt.

Now as with the African Americans, they were brought over to the USA as slaves starting in the 1700s from Africa and in large numbers, which continued to happen until 1800s. They were treated as animals and were not allowed to have the same human rights like the white people. By the time slavery was abolished in 1865, the African slaves were already in the country for hundreds of years and newer generations emerged and they lost all contact with their African roots and languages since the slave owners would not let them freely go back to Africa to be in touch with families/friends. It is not like they could easily just hop on a boat/ship to return to Africa and rejoin the societies they or their earlier generations were taken away from. They have been in USA for so long after generations and with not even knowing any African languages, they had no place to go. After slavery was abolished, the African Americans still faced discrimination and were not allowed equal opportunities to jobs. Since they had no connections to Africa or either very limited since they pretty much lost their own cultures, it is not like they could form their own enclaves to do shipping and handling businesses with African nations like the Chinese were able to. Now at this time, almost all African Americans lived in the south eastern parts of the USA since most of them were brought over to work in the fields especially the cotton fields. But now because of the Jim Crow laws and the KKK and the bad housing/schooling conditions and inequality to quality jobs/education, many of them left the south to go to the northern USA cities including NYC to find jobs, better housing and better educational opportunities and unlike the south where the Jim Crow laws forbade blacks and whites from integrating, it was easier for them in the northern cities to intermingle into the white communities including working in jobs with a lot of white people since there were no laws to prohibit blacks and other non whites from being with white people, but they were still not very welcomed and still suffered discrimination and job seeking was still not easy and yes they also formed their own enclaves as well in these cities and they still had slummy conditions as well despite being in a better situation than in the south. However, not all the blacks from the south could migrate to the north and most of them still remained in the south where they were still suffering with horrible conditions and inequality to education/jobs and with dealing with the Jim Crow laws until the 1960s. Particularly in NYC, many of the black migrants settled near and sometimes even into areas that were predominantly Jewish and Italian enclaves during the 1930s-40s, especially in northern Brooklyn where a lot of the manufacturing jobs were in, which attracted a lot of the Blacks in addition to a lot of European immigrants to come into these areas to seek jobs and live nearby finding affordable housing. But what happened was that when manufacturing companies, which were all owned by whites started going away, job opportunities became much less and unlike the European Americans that had better financial resources and connections, they were able to easily move into the suburbs and find jobs elsewhere; thanks to the government favoring whites, the Blacks did not have the same resources and had no choice, but to remain where they were and there were still more blacks moving into NYC seeking manufacturing jobs and then they began to realized they were becoming harder to find now, however real estate developers also played a role in this and the government were still prejudiced against non whites. In addition, when the Blacks were moving into traditionally Jewish/Italian enclaves during the 1950s-60s and I will use northern Brooklyn as a prime example, real estate developers took advantage of the situation and used it as a way to scare all the white folks into thinking property values are going down because of blacks moving in and many of the whites started selling their properties supposedly at a reduced value to the real estate developers and then would resell or re-rent the properties to blacks at a higher rate to make commission, which caused many blacks to have trouble with paying the mortgages as the real estate developers charged ridiculous mortgage fees to them and sold them properties in bad shape and now all of a sudden the real estate developers are overwhelmed with a lot of empty properties they could not sell, so they either had to lower the price and sell it to a lower income family often non white or they became abandoned and the criminals started using the property to do such things, which made the neighborhoods worse. When the real estate developers played into the white people's fears of blacks, not only were white residents moving out of the northern parts of Brooklyn, but it also sped up the migrations of the manufacturing businesses to move from the areas including social/community services started moving away in large numbers and so did even small businesses as well. All these large businesses including the manufacturing and as well the social/community services were all owned by whites and because of their prejudices against black people, which the real estate developers also further increased their prejudices against blacks, they did not want to provide them jobs or services and took them out of the areas that were getting an influx of blacks and Latinos especially including the northern sections of Brooklyn. Now by the late 1960s and 1970s, with the Blacks/Latinos as the only remaining populations in northern Brooklyn and with no businesses that can provide them jobs and with no community/social services to provide them help or educational resources and with horrible school systems now in their neighborhoods and with the government's lack of attention to these neighborhoods including limited small businesses in the area to provide them basic necessities, many of the blacks in these areas had no choice, but to live a life of crime to get by and to go onto welfare to support their living. Since the blacks did not have the financial resource or connection to own large businesses like the whites did nor were they able to strongly do trading businesses with African countries since as I have said, they lost their cultural/linguistic connections with Africa as well as Africa was not as economically prosperous and would not financially benefit the USA communities much, the African Americans did not have a backup on maintaining their financial resources other than rely on the fact of if there were available jobs or not; often relying on if a white business person would open a large business to provide them jobs and in this case with the sudden migrations of the businesses and social services away from the neighborhoods with an increasing black/Latino population, they either had to rely on crime or welfare to get by. This also explains why a lot of blacks are not able to own large businesses in their own communities. A lot of the bodegas are owned by Muslims or Latinos. The large businesses that are in the black neighborhoods are owned by big American chain corporations unlike in Asian communities where they have a lot of their own large businesses. Because of all these things they went through that I mentioned above, the blacks did not have the connections of capabilities to own a lot of their own of businesses to provide jobs to their communities including creating educational organizations like the Asian American communities were able to when the whites would not provide opportunities to non white people economically and educationally. The blacks have had these cycles of poverty because of what they went through with slavery and discrimination that it just became something that many of them felt they were unable to get out of and were used to it as the back of their hands and whenever Blacks migrated to places to seek jobs during the early to mid 1900s, just when they thought they could get good jobs and maintain them, they keep facing the barriers of finding or maintaining these jobs and unable to get the success like the whites did; thanks to the white society being prejudiced against them back then, which that is why education may not always be highly valued in the African American communities because for such a long history for them, being as skilled or educated did not benefit them thanks to the racist white society that the idea of being stuck where they are has not completely left their mindsets. As for the Asian Americans, they were discriminated yes, but they still had connections back home that they could do trading business with and maintain a living, which in the future would benefit and service the new incoming Asian immigrants that would come.

And yes, unfortunately a lot of the Americans are unaware of social problems in Asian American communities including emotional/mental health problems. However, in case you missed what I wrote about about social problems already existing in Asian American communities in my last statement response, especially when I spoke about affordable housing issues, not only are the Americans unaware of the social problems in Asian American communities, but even many of the Asian Americans themselves are unaware or either in denial of social problems that exists in their communities or they just choose to be totally silent on it in addition to being unaware about issues in Black/Latino communities. And even if they knew there were problems, they do not really get active politically to voice the problems and sometimes they put on a pretend reputation to cover up the problems that are going on in their lives and communities and sometimes they will talk down on other families or people that may be in worse conditions, just to make themselves feel and look better, although I am not saying all Asians are like this.

Do you know how many Asian and Chinese children when they voice to their parents why they are upset over something, which may have led to them crying maybe even acting out, but the parents just immediately disregard them as if they are not nothing and just an immature child and verbally abuse them even degrading them as if they are nothing but trash, sometimes even beat them and all they do is just bring in this authority that everything the parents say goes and nothing else; usually using the authority only for the parents' benefits instead of being understanding and trying to talk to them to resolve why they are upset and/or trying to see if maybe some of their obedience rules they are making maybe causing more problems than making them behave well. Sometimes that adds to the Asian child's mental/emotional issues and when the teachers talk to the Asian parents about their changed behaviors for the worse and maybe even consider seeing psychologist that their child has some emotional/mental problems and want to see what may be happening in the home environment, not all, but a lot of the Asian parents will not even listen to this and do not even believe in psychologists and think that the emotional/mental health as a science fiction phenomenon that does not exist and they think the child is just making it up and then again, they bring the child home and start verbally abusing them again and beating them with the expectations that if they continue this punishment method that it will make them behave the way they want. Even a lot of the Asian parents are unaware of problems going on in their own homes and with their children or either in denial. Just because I said the parents need to be more communicative with their children and try to understand why they did what they did, it does not mean no punishment because they still have to learn their lessons and they still need to know who is in authority, but the parents have to use their authority in a way that benefits both the children and the parents, although if the child has repeatedly done wrong things and the parents' repeated method of the understanding and communications does not work, then in that case they will have to use full blown authority. There is nothing wrong with becoming rich and moving out, but a lot of the Asians that do become successful and move out ignore the problems that persist in the Asian American communities and they act like they know nothing about it and will not even invest resources and money or organizations to help with the issues. There are already enough basic social service organizations helping with getting benefits and legal rights and all, but when it comes to affordable decent housing, they are not doing anything to invest especially the property developers. You cannot rely solely on the government officials to protest for it like Margaret Chin, developers in the area also need to be involved. Now the Black/Latino communities may not be as educationally and economically advanced like the Asian American communities on average, the ones that do become successful academically/financially and even if they move out, there is a greater chance of them coming back to help the communities out and invest money and create organizations to help them out especially when it comes to the affordable housing crisis.

Last edited by toby2016; 09-23-2018 at 05:04 PM..
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Old 09-23-2018, 07:20 PM
 
187 posts, read 119,786 times
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Originally Posted by Bumbleboom View Post
Comparing who has it worse and regulating morality is subjective and downright disrespectful. You talk as if the immigrants who came from Asia in the 1950s to 1980s come from perfect countries where things are peaceful. Just because the majority of the current Asian Americans didn't suffer 3 centuries of oppression, doesn't mean they didn't suffer at all.

China went through a 100 years of unfortunate events, just like how the Middle East countries are right now. Opium Wars, Opium Wars 2, Taiping Rebellion, Boxer Rebellion, overthrown of the Qing dynasty, Sino-Japanese War, World War 2, Chinese Civil War, and the Great Revolution. The majority of Chinese immigrants who came from China aren't college educated. There were also loss of culture due to upheaval of customs. Not to mention immigrants parents live truncated lives in America due to language barrier and cultural difference.

And not all Asians come from China. Tons of Chinese diaspora in Southeast Asian countries like Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Cambodia were refugee fleeing China in the 19th century due to how bad the conditions were. It wasn't that long ago that China had more people in poverty than the continent of Africa. Not to mention tons of these countries had war.

Refugees from the Vietnam War especially the Boat people aren't even high school educated, they come to America with no wealth, and are told they are better off than African Americans. These people survived Thai pirates, starvation, being out at sea, drinking their own ****, getting robbed, raped, etc. War is worse than segregation in my ones. That is why subjectively quantifying who has it worse makes no sense to me.

Vietnam had the Vietnam War that spread to Laos and Cambodia. Cambodia also had the Khmer Rouge not that long ago. Korea had the Korean War, China had the Civil War, and Japan had World War 2. Not to mention Indonesian independence, Burmese infighting that still occurs today. The richest country in Asia in the 1960s was Philippines. This means many Asian immigrants back at that time were fleeing from poverty.

This is exactly why the immigrant parents today still have negative thoughts of their home countries because how bad it was, and they tell their kids that they are better off in America and having to study hard so they aren't in Asia like everyone else.

Since Americans don't know history that well, Asians don't appear out of nowhere with no suffering, land on the shores of America, and proceed to overtake the African Americans thus pissing them off. You talk about Chinese being ignorant of Latino and African American's plight and social problems. How many of those communities know about Asian's PTSD due to war and the language barrier as well as social problems and isolation.

You should know that Asians did face discrimination, the ones in America in the 1800s and 1900s who barely had kids due to miscegenation laws and banning females from coming over from Asia and then Chinese Exclusion Act for over 100 years. Mass lynchings, driving Chinese men out of towns, sunset towns where they hunted down Chinese caught after dark in the towns. That's why minorities congregate and form communities such as Chinatown.

Chinese can learn about others after they gets their problems solved first. How can they help others when they themselves have to fix their own situations first. Chinese immigrant parents owning laundrymats aren't going to yield because they hear African Americans had slavery therefore their daughter cannot go to Stuy.

Single motherhood is those communities' problems and shouldn't be a factor to impact on specialized high school and education in New York in general. If single motherhood is accounted for, shouldn't Asian kids be in the same situation since their parents are non-existent due to working long hours? You can't quantify morality and who has it worse. That is why DeBlasio can't say "those rich white kids at Stuy are the majority". That is why he had to phrase it in a way to make it about race without using race.

You say Asian Americans get rich, improve status, and move out. Well, why do African Americans who become middle class move to Laurelton and Rosedale and Cambria Heights and not stay in Bed Stuy or Mott Haven? The Chinese neighborhoods tend to cater towards new immigrants and elderly foreign born Asians. Asians improve and they move on, they don't linger around. If you are born in what is consider a poor area, why would you want to stay in that poor area? Improving one's status and surrounding is a crime, then Asians are guilty. The kids aren't going to live in the same area and work the same jobs as their parents. If they have debt, they want to get out of debt, not swim in it.

Since Latinos and African Americans don't value education as much as Asians do, then Asians having tutoring centers and bookstores aren't even a problem. The Hasidic community has their own schools and bookstores selling books in Yiddish. So they should be penalized too? The reason why bookstores and tutoring don't exist to the extent in Latino and African American communities is because they don't value education, and therefore its not profitable to exist in those neighborhoods. But at the same time, there is something called mass transit, and Student Metrocard is free to use with 3 swipes.

Chinese kids do have to take care of their siblings because their parents aren't home. And everything else you listed about, minus the teenage mother pregnancy. Guess what? The parents throw the kids in cram school as daycare centers or they have the grandparents tend to the kids. Single motherhood and teenage pregnancy shouldn't fall on Chinese people's shoulders or Indian immigrant's shoulders.

Speaking of Indian, there are a ton of Guyanese Indians who came from indentured servants, and they aren't privileged at all, well they could put that they are Latino and not Asian, lucky them.

You do admit that Latino majority and African American majority high schools sucks. Why would anyone want to DOWNGRADE their child's education when the teenager is capable of handling specialized high schools? Imagine your kid is qualify to have a full course meal at a expensive restaurant, then told he or she has to go to a cheap restaurant and eat a half eaten cold meal. The Clark doll experiment talks about how African American kids feel inferior in a segregated but equal environment which influenced the Brown vs Board Supreme Court decision. So that would mean that the Asian kid would feel inferior going to a crappier school that everyone knows is crappy, going to a school people are fleeing from. Telling the kid oh, the school isn't that bad because the Black/Latino majority school in a white neighborhood is better than the Black/Latino majority school in a black/latino neighborhood. That is literally like Rosa Parks on a Montgomery bus where they have to give up their opportunity for someone else. You are telling these kids to a exceptional at a ****ty school. And there is no distinction between whether it's in a black or white neighborhood, these Asian kids strive for the best. They would rather be a small fish in a big pond than a big fish in a small pond.

One more thing I wanted to mention, I had said in the previous post that often when an Asian American goes to a high school with a majority Black/Latino schools, when they learn about the social problems going on in their neighborhoods, some of them begin to realize there are problems going on in their own communities that they never fully paid attention before and then they realize people in the Asian communities do not discuss about it out rightly often and if they had not notice all these problems going on in the Latino/Black communities, they would have never been thinking much about the problems going on in the Asian American communities. Especially in the Chinese communities, it is more than mental health problems. There is poverty and affordable housing crisis, which often is under spoken about in their communities.
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Old 09-23-2018, 07:52 PM
 
Location: In the heights
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Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Why is it the coloureds always need "help"?


This country was turned upside down starting in the 1960's with various civil rights/anti discrimination laws meant to favor, protect, advance, or whatever minorities especially blacks.


Fast forward over fifty years and people are *still* moaning. At some or what point does personal responsibility for oneself and children ever take hold?


Asian kids go to the same public schools as minority kids, and somehow, somehow they manage to obtain grades that get them into top high schools and onto college. Asian kids usually within in one generation become members of the professional classes (doctors, lawyers, etc...), yet somehow we are continuously told that AA kids have to push their way into "better" schools, and or need *more* money for their own local.
I'll take a crack at this! Or at least parts of this.

For differences between AAs and Asian kids, as well AAs and recent African migrants for that matter who are among the highest academically achieving groups in the US, the difference might be that a couple centuries of having families forcibly pulled apart and communities disrupted having been partially internalized to segments of the AA population. We talk about how things start at home all the time with how important the role and guidance parents are to the process and AAs descended from slaves essentially lived several generations with that massively disrupted on a wide ranging scale. That being said, this is only a segment of the AA population and not that much attention is paid to the large numbers and proportions of AAs who enter the middle class and beyond. Asians in the US for the most part, and by a large majority, are not descended from the coolie labor that was brought in (plus that wasn't several generations of coolie labor) and came from societies where they were able to maintain very stable family and community units.

I think one further crinkle in this is that the mid 20th century also saw the US greatly expand its industrial might on the backbone of new engineering and scientific breakthroughs which saw us utilize a variety of industrial processes, including chemical processes, on a scale that was unimaginable in the past. Part of that was a flirtation with new things and interesting ways to tackle new problems as we jettisoned tried and true processes and started on a path of new and exciting things like leaded gasoline and lead paint and massive expressways. That was something really exciting, but it just so happens that some of these things are actually incredibly detrimental to a person's development in certain conditions.

It just so happens that some of those conditions included living in areas exposed to these chemicals from these advancements in large quantity and en masse over several decades and affects people regardless of race, but it just so happens that those who got the business end of it the most were disproportionately AAs when it came to leaded gasoline and part of the whole being poor thing with mismanaged public services means that lesser sources of this lead poisoning such as lead paint peeling and corrosion of water pipes with lead components to them were able to deteriorate in a way that many other parts of the US which also happened to have boomed after these were more or less taken out of the equation do not have as much of and are quicker to be remediated. Lead's effects on childhood development is pretty well known and pays some amazingly copious and ****ty dividends for decades to come including how cognitively well those affected deal with parenting and the costs it puts on a community--which then again goes back to what a lot of people have been saying about how it starts at home. Now why weren't the Asians or the more recent African migrants as hard hit by it? Well, because they only came in large numbers after most of this was understood to be a problem and mostly, with some glaring exceptions, addressed and they come from countries that mostly did not have those issues at the same level or proportions for those generations.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-23-2018 at 09:04 PM..
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Old 09-23-2018, 08:04 PM
 
Location: In the heights
21,445 posts, read 22,847,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshanarose View Post
There are more test prep classes in Asian neighborhood because Asians open businesses offering these classes, and more Asian parents are paying for these classes
And having more of them gives them more price competition, economies of scale, and essentially more r&d in the "field" of test prep classes. It's a feedback loop!

There was a pilot in the Bronx that massively extended what were basically study hours in the school year and school day which ended up showing some pretty great success. More of that makes more sense to me. A lot of those test prep centers are little more than enforced study hours anyhow.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-23-2018 at 08:51 PM..
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Old Today, 10:04 AM
 
Location: NY
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I won't waste anybody's time with the how's and why's.
I find no difference between DiBlasio's attempt to eliminate entrance exams of high proficiency
academic schools and millionaire actors paying thousands to get their kids into elite ivy league schools.


This is the bottom line.
Kids should earn their way into schools by merits and IQ not by money or free rides.
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Old Today, 10:40 AM
 
Location: New York City
7,800 posts, read 5,943,867 times
Reputation: 5524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Retired View Post
I won't waste anybody's time with the how's and why's.
I find no difference between DiBlasio's attempt to eliminate entrance exams of high proficiency
academic schools and millionaire actors paying thousands to get their kids into elite ivy league schools.


This is the bottom line.
Kids should earn their way into schools by merits and IQ not by money or free rides.
This initiative is a microcosm of what is fundamentally wrong with social justice warriors. They see a perceived imbalance, and instead of addressing the root bottom up causes they socially engineer from top down and impose artificial constraints. Instead of dealing with bad parenting, lack of behavioral standards, and low expectations, they just choose to lower the bar and bring the standards down to their level instead of giving them a boost up to meet the standard.

End result is society is worse overall and the best qualified members of society are replaced by lowering performing members. It's basically what socialism does (imposed standards, someone arbitrarily decides who gets what) versus capitalism (market discovery finds the truth and optimal results). The results of these sorts of things are just going to be lower prosperity for everyone and the best people not having the maximum opportunity to do great things for all of us
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