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25k jobs were gonna go where most high paying jobs in NYC go - to transplants who move here for these jobs. Meanwhile rents in at least five predominantely working class and immigrant neighborhoods were set to skyrocket. Hundreds of thousands of people being displaced from their homes to please non-New Yorkers? No thanks. The only way I’d support Amazon being here is if they pledged to hire predominantely from the five boroughs. Instead we gave the world’s richest man billions of dollars and a place for his helicopter.
The market and resources are created by the companies and the workers they employ. If you get rid of those, you get Detroit, or 1970s NYC.
How many of the "giveaways" are specifically Amazon-designed? Most of the touted tax breaks offered are also offered to any businesses moving to NYC just like Amazon. The actual $ amount is in the billions only because of the scale involved.
No one is saying get rid of the companies and workers--like, what would that consist of? Drive everyone into the ocean? Simplified, the market are the other companies and the industry already here and the resources are the workers and aspects of the city which attracts such workers. There are some very good reasons for certain companies and individuals to be in New York City and I think you're reasonable enough to agree with that.
Also, 1970s inner city in the US was bad everywhere. One of the largest correlative culprits was the construction of highways through urban neighborhoods and the use of leaded gasoline for decades which combined created a lot of health issues including environmentally induced sociopathic tendencies. That's one of several factors, but the main point is that parameters are way different. I'm not saying that NYC is going to be riding economically high forever, because that's impossible, but I'm saying this is unlikely to be the inflection point for anything big.
I believe there was an as-of-right income tax credit worth $897 million from an existing program irrespective of which company it is. I think if it was only that, then at least there can be an argument along very different lines which would have been more palatable and have gotten less pushback, though the city should re-think this a bit.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 02-12-2019 at 10:46 AM..
Here's what at stake. Any company (like Amazon) will need to invest a tremendous amount of money to build the campus. Then, doing business in New York is extremely expensive. Yes, there are quality employees here but that's not exclusive to NYC. Thus, they need to give an incentive to compensate for the higher cost of doing business here. It's that simple.
Why do they need to create a campus? The Hudson Yards is almost complete and will have A LOT of office floors. Amazon can take over the old Lord and Taylor building with a collab with WeWork.
If they want to build a campus with a cafeteria, a fitness center, a game room, a movie room, etc then that is on them.
I believe there was an as-of-right income tax credit worth $897 million from an existing program irrespective of which company it is. I think if it was only that, then at least there can be an argument along very different lines which would have been more palatable and have gotten less pushback, though the city should re-think this a bit.
I just looked up the breakdown of the 'claimed' $3 billion in incentives, to see if my original gut feeling claim was correct:
- Up to $1.2 billion NYS Excelsior program - offered to everyone, existed since 2010 before any Amazon deals
- Up to $900 million in REAPS benefits, for moving jobs to outer borough/ outer borough development - again offered to everyone
- $??? ICAP program - again offered to everyone and has been around long before any Amazon deal
The only incentive specific to Amazon is up to $500 million in capital grants for actual construction costs using NYC union labor, with the stipulation that Amazon matches it with $2 billion in private investment.
FYI, except for the outer borough REAPS, Google qualified for the same benefits, since they are using the same programs, but simply no one is talking about it.
Why do they need to create a campus? The Hudson Yards is almost complete and will have A LOT of office floors. Amazon can take over the old Lord and Taylor building with a collab with WeWork.
If they want to build a campus with a cafeteria, a fitness center, a game room, a movie room, etc then that is on them.
Hudson Yards office space is already being leased out before completion. There is no space for another 25,500 office jobs without re-zoning.
25k jobs were gonna go where most high paying jobs in NYC go - to transplants who move here for these jobs. Meanwhile rents in at least five predominantely working class and immigrant neighborhoods were set to skyrocket. Hundreds of thousands of people being displaced from their homes to please non-New Yorkers? No thanks. The only way I’d support Amazon being here is if they pledged to hire predominantely from the five boroughs. Instead we gave the world’s richest man billions of dollars and a place for his helicopter.
What makes you think it will be all transplants working there? Many New Yorkers are college educated and can work those jobs
25k jobs were gonna go where most high paying jobs in NYC go - to transplants who move here for these jobs. Meanwhile rents in at least five predominantely working class and immigrant neighborhoods were set to skyrocket. Hundreds of thousands of people being displaced from their homes to please non-New Yorkers? No thanks. The only way I’d support Amazon being here is if they pledged to hire predominantely from the five boroughs. Instead we gave the world’s richest man billions of dollars and a place for his helicopter.
Rents will go up, but isn't that a fact of life in NYC anyway? Meanwhile, these 25,000 professionals will provide an enormous economic boost for the LIC community. That's why the majority of local residents actually support. Don't listen to the politicians "representing" them, like the anti-capitalist AOC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nybklyn
Sorry, using taxpayer dollars to build them a helipad, thanks but no thanks. I don’t need them to be here using my tax dollars.
Your taxpayers won't be paying for this. Amazon will pay for the helipad. What's the problem anyway with having one? Suddenly helicopters are a problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
I guess you really need things to be simple, because it looks like things went right over your head. I’m impressed! Do we do a tremendous amount of giveaways for any company to build a campus? When is that usually the case?
Quick qs: do you know how many people Amazon and its subsidiaries currently employs in NYC and the Tri-State Area? Do you know how many people the major tech giants employ here and its growth in the last few years? Do you know how many people are employed in the tech sector and its growth in the last few years? Do you know how much the tech industry has been going in head count and investment? Do you know how quickly the Long Island City waterfront has appreciated in value?
Here's part of an editorial from the uber-liberal NYDN:
They promised around $3 billion in incentives — tax abatements and the like. It is this figure that sticks in the craw of Ocasio-Cortez and others. They ask why the city of New York should be offering such a nice package to one of the world's richest corporations, headed, as you all know, by the world’s richest man, Jeff Bezos.
This is a good question to which the quick answer is that life is not fair. Should you not know this, I am here to tell you that celebrities — even minor ones — get free clothing from stores or manufacturers who want their brands to be seen on the (often) very rich and the (sometimes) barely famous. In this country, you can negotiate anything.
Gov. Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio promised around $3 billion in incentives — tax abatements and the like. It is this figure that sticks in the craw of Ocasio-Cortez and others. They ask why the city of New York should be offering such a nice package to one of the world's richest corporations, headed, as you all know, by the world’s richest man, Jeff Bezos.
This is a good question to which the quick answer is that life is not fair. Should you not know this, I am here to tell you that celebrities — even minor ones — get free clothing from stores or manufacturers who want their brands to be seen on the (often) very rich and the (sometimes) barely famous. In this country, you can negotiate anything.
And so Amazon negotiated. It asked cities to make offers, and 238 did. In the end, New York and Crystal City, Va., won out. Crystal City is right across the river from Washington, and Long Island City is right across the river from Manhattan.
River views were not, however, the only inducement. Instead, it was more likely the taxes Amazon was going to save. The company might be rich, but so are many of the others who in recent years have struck similar deals. The Atlantic magazine published a dandy article on this matter. According to the magazine, Boeing, Nike, Intel, Royal Dutch Shell, Tesla, Nissan, Ford and General Motors received subsidies worth at least $1 billion each either to move or stay where they are. In exchange, of course, they promised jobs and, I imagine, the occasional school or park. (Amazon offered all three.)
As Ocasio-Cortez implies, just because the practice may be widespread doesn’t make it right. I agree. The Atlantic article, in fact, argues that it ought to be outlawed. Right again. Doing so, however, raises constitutional issues involving the Commerce Clause. Still, Congress might ****** with the tax code to make billion-dollar inducements less valuable.
In the meantime, though, simply blocking the Amazon deal is going to do no one any good. Those 25,000 promised jobs are not minimum-wage ones — we’re talking an average of $150,000 a year. In addition, Amazon is going to need more than geeks and nerds — custodial and security come to mind. Maybe most valuable of all is the effect such a move would have on the community and the city.
Rents will go up, but isn't that a fact of life in NYC anyway? Meanwhile, these 25,000 professionals will provide an enormous economic boost for the LIC community. That's why the majority of local residents actually support. Don't listen to the politicians "representing" them, like the anti-capitalist AOC.
Your taxpayers won't be paying for this. Amazon will pay for the helipad. What's the problem anyway with having one? Suddenly helicopters are a problem?
Here's part of an editorial from the uber-liberal NYDN:
They promised around $3 billion in incentives — tax abatements and the like. It is this figure that sticks in the craw of Ocasio-Cortez and others. They ask why the city of New York should be offering such a nice package to one of the world's richest corporations, headed, as you all know, by the world’s richest man, Jeff Bezos.
This is a good question to which the quick answer is that life is not fair. Should you not know this, I am here to tell you that celebrities — even minor ones — get free clothing from stores or manufacturers who want their brands to be seen on the (often) very rich and the (sometimes) barely famous. In this country, you can negotiate anything.
Gov. Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio promised around $3 billion in incentives — tax abatements and the like. It is this figure that sticks in the craw of Ocasio-Cortez and others. They ask why the city of New York should be offering such a nice package to one of the world's richest corporations, headed, as you all know, by the world’s richest man, Jeff Bezos.
This is a good question to which the quick answer is that life is not fair. Should you not know this, I am here to tell you that celebrities — even minor ones — get free clothing from stores or manufacturers who want their brands to be seen on the (often) very rich and the (sometimes) barely famous. In this country, you can negotiate anything.
And so Amazon negotiated. It asked cities to make offers, and 238 did. In the end, New York and Crystal City, Va., won out. Crystal City is right across the river from Washington, and Long Island City is right across the river from Manhattan.
River views were not, however, the only inducement. Instead, it was more likely the taxes Amazon was going to save. The company might be rich, but so are many of the others who in recent years have struck similar deals. The Atlantic magazine published a dandy article on this matter. According to the magazine, Boeing, Nike, Intel, Royal Dutch Shell, Tesla, Nissan, Ford and General Motors received subsidies worth at least $1 billion each either to move or stay where they are. In exchange, of course, they promised jobs and, I imagine, the occasional school or park. (Amazon offered all three.)
As Ocasio-Cortez implies, just because the practice may be widespread doesn’t make it right. I agree. The Atlantic article, in fact, argues that it ought to be outlawed. Right again. Doing so, however, raises constitutional issues involving the Commerce Clause. Still, Congress might ****** with the tax code to make billion-dollar inducements less valuable.
In the meantime, though, simply blocking the Amazon deal is going to do no one any good. Those 25,000 promised jobs are not minimum-wage ones — we’re talking an average of $150,000 a year. In addition, Amazon is going to need more than geeks and nerds — custodial and security come to mind. Maybe most valuable of all is the effect such a move would have on the community and the city.
Proof that most local residents? And define local residents? Do you mean people who just moved to LIC a few years ago, or people who were born in LIC? LIC 20 years ago was a dump, it was very working class and there's no way those people want Amazon to move in. They will not be getting six digit jobs.
And this isn't about just LIC. Gentrification will go into superdrive in Astoria, Woodside, Sunnyside, Jackson Heights, Corona, and Elmhurst. Because assuming Amazon really does come, some other major tech players or companies are bound to come as well.
Now of course, if this is what you support, it's what you support and I am not condemning you for that. But this is not what the long term residents of these working class neighborhoods support. They will be priced out, and there's no reason for you to sugarcoat that.
What makes you think it will be all transplants working there? Many New Yorkers are college educated and can work those jobs
But there's no way that Amazon won't be importing a significant number of talent. It's not just college educated, they will be looking for very specific degrees.
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