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Old 08-01-2019, 08:32 AM
 
Location: NYC
13,080 posts, read 8,860,000 times
Reputation: 14398

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People need to get over the climate change BS, it's all about money grabbing. That's how capitalism works, unless we live in a socialist country.

In a capitalist country, promoting new energy or controlling pollution involves taxing and increasing costs of existing services to force people to adopt newer more expensive energy sources. Renewables just another fancy way of switching people to newer more expensive energy because it forces people to adopt and purchase all new services and equipment. That's how the drum rolls, it has nothing to do with saving the environment, it's only to drive people to line up pockets of salesman and jobs for workers.

In a socialist country, they can easily declare phasing out certain equipment or banning them and you could no longer buy or use certain things like plastic bags or use diesel if the country decides without debates and take away choices.
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Old 08-01-2019, 09:03 AM
 
7,082 posts, read 14,166,122 times
Reputation: 4708
Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
People need to get over the climate change BS, it's all about money grabbing. That's how capitalism works, unless we live in a socialist country.

In a capitalist country, promoting new energy or controlling pollution involves taxing and increasing costs of existing services to force people to adopt newer more expensive energy sources. Renewables just another fancy way of switching people to newer more expensive energy because it forces people to adopt and purchase all new services and equipment. That's how the drum rolls, it has nothing to do with saving the environment, it's only to drive people to line up pockets of salesman and jobs for workers.

In a socialist country, they can easily declare phasing out certain equipment or banning them and you could no longer buy or use certain things like plastic bags or use diesel if the country decides without debates and take away choices.
Sorry that you think clean air and water is socialist. If I believed in a God, I'd pray for you because that's honestly really pathetic that you think clean air to breathe and clean water to drink is a political issue rather than a humanity issue.
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Old 08-01-2019, 09:48 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
2,743 posts, read 2,304,123 times
Reputation: 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
People need to get over the climate change BS, it's all about money grabbing. That's how capitalism works, unless we live in a socialist country.

In a capitalist country, promoting new energy or controlling pollution involves taxing and increasing costs of existing services to force people to adopt newer more expensive energy sources. Renewables just another fancy way of switching people to newer more expensive energy because it forces people to adopt and purchase all new services and equipment. That's how the drum rolls, it has nothing to do with saving the environment, it's only to drive people to line up pockets of salesman and jobs for workers.

In a socialist country, they can easily declare phasing out certain equipment or banning them and you could no longer buy or use certain things like plastic bags or use diesel if the country decides without debates and take away choices.

I'm sorry but the bold is incorrect. In capitalism, the goal is to make money - taxing is out of the picture. If I created a new water-vapored powered vehicle, I'd sell it and make money out of it period. There is no taxing involved - either you as the consumer want to buy it or not.

With socialism, the government would force everyone to buy my vehicle, but only after the socialist government removes the patent and rights from me as an individual so that *they* can collect the resource and redistribute to others.
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Old 08-01-2019, 10:22 AM
 
207 posts, read 45,894 times
Reputation: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormgal View Post
With socialism, the government would force everyone to buy my vehicle, but only after the socialist government removes the patent and rights from me as an individual so that *they* can collect the resource and redistribute to others.
A socialist country would sell your patents to a capitalist and pocket the profits, never being able to tool up and build the machine in their own country.
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:17 PM
 
11,027 posts, read 9,418,427 times
Reputation: 6704
A big problem with renewables is reliability. Raw cost per KwH has come down, but they don't produce all the time. Solar has it's obvious issues (night, clouds, etc.) and the wind doesn't always blow. This means you need excess capacity and storage (raising the total cost for renewable power tremendously), or other sources of power that can be brought on like to fill (most likely fossil fuel powered.)

As far as vehicle pollution, other than CO2 (which may or may not actually be considered a pollutant), modern cars essentially produce no pollution. They've been brought to heel by pollution control engineering. Diesel trucks, OTOH are an issue. But the economy essentially runs on them.

Even if we need to deal with CO2, a better way to deal with that would be carbon neutral biofuels. Electric motors are great, batteries are terrible, and will never really get good enough to replace liquid fuels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Yea, that first part is right on, but Iím not sure about the second part. Thereís the concept of grid parity and as efficiencies continue to be found during production scaling, various renewable energies in large chunks of the US have reached grid parity now, as in today, where renewable energy production is cheaper than building new fossil fuel plants, and in some parts, even cheaper than maintaining legacy fossil fuel plants. I think the sad part of the whole thing is how much of those costs came down for renewable energy in the last couple decades was especially due to production scaling as it meant simply pushing the industry to scale was valuable. Adam Smith, great free market popularizer that he was, wrote in favor of government intervention in industry on a very narrow basis of it incubating an industry of great need or having national security implications. Renewable energy was and is both and the US could have dominated the sector to its own industrial profit, but thatís not where policy went.

Anyhow, thereís an ancillary benefit for things like pushing electric vehicles that densely populated and trafficked areas like NYC and its surrounding areas have which is tailpipe emissions. I think having cleaner air is a fine thing to have and it pays dividends in terms of productivity by lessening time and resource costs from bad air quality. Iím definitely greatly in favor of electric vehicles making up a greater proportion of the vehicle fleet here whether trucks, buses, or cars. There's also the relatively minor but still notable contribution to the urban heat island effect that ICE vehicles with their inefficient conversion of gas to usable work have. Oh, and they're quieter, too!

AOC's district, as many of you know, has had a history of freeways bulldozed through them and those emissions, especially in the era of leaded gasoline and its aftermath decades after leaded gasoline was removed from the market, made a large and sustained impact. However, even outside that district, NYC residents as a whole would benefit from a push towards electrification of vehicles and a push towards better mass transit.
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Old 08-02-2019, 07:01 AM
exm
 
Location: Long Island, NY
2,146 posts, read 719,393 times
Reputation: 1388
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
A big problem with renewables is reliability. Raw cost per KwH has come down, but they don't produce all the time. Solar has it's obvious issues (night, clouds, etc.) and the wind doesn't always blow. This means you need excess capacity and storage (raising the total cost for renewable power tremendously), or other sources of power that can be brought on like to fill (most likely fossil fuel powered.)

As far as vehicle pollution, other than CO2 (which may or may not actually be considered a pollutant), modern cars essentially produce no pollution. They've been brought to heel by pollution control engineering. Diesel trucks, OTOH are an issue. But the economy essentially runs on them.

Even if we need to deal with CO2, a better way to deal with that would be carbon neutral biofuels. Electric motors are great, batteries are terrible, and will never really get good enough to replace liquid fuels.

The key is to find mechanisms (machines) to reduce CO2, which are already being worked on. Put a tax on energy companies (let's say 5% of their profits) with a CO2 reduction goal that they'll have to re-invest in technology to reduce CO2. Everyone happy (except of course the greenies who pretend to care about the environment but in reality really want a socialistic government controlled society).
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Old 08-02-2019, 07:14 AM
 
35 posts, read 4,679 times
Reputation: 29
When we all go electric we will end up blowing up planet earth. Electricity is unhealthy.
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:27 PM
 
7,082 posts, read 14,166,122 times
Reputation: 4708
Quote:
Originally Posted by exm View Post
The key is to find mechanisms (machines) to reduce CO2, which are already being worked on. Put a tax on energy companies (let's say 5% of their profits) with a CO2 reduction goal that they'll have to re-invest in technology to reduce CO2. Everyone happy (except of course the greenies who pretend to care about the environment but in reality really want a socialistic government controlled society).
Way to throw your personal beliefs on everyone you don't agree with I'm very much into sustainability and being environmentally-friendly. However, I'm not advocating for a Venezuelan-style government. I'm advocating for a Canadian or European-style government where the citizens' well-being is a priority of the government, rather the well-being of corporate profits.
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Old 08-02-2019, 04:30 PM
 
3,180 posts, read 1,481,126 times
Reputation: 2443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henna View Post
I live in it. I didnít vote in that election. I regret not voting for her opponent. Iím not a fan. She ruined the Amazon deal which would have brought much needed money and employment opportunities. She doesnít appear to care about her constituents and is only interested in making a national name for herself. Plus I find her way too far to the left for my taste. Iíll be voting for her opponent if I get a chance in the future. Unless the opponent is Trump like.

From my understanding, she had very little to do with Amazon leaving...


She's being given way too much credit for something she has relatively little to do with.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:34 PM
 
35 posts, read 4,679 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
Way to throw your personal beliefs on everyone you don't agree with I'm very much into sustainability and being environmentally-friendly. However, I'm not advocating for a Venezuelan-style government. I'm advocating for a Canadian or European-style government where the citizens' well-being is a priority of the government, rather the well-being of corporate profits.
Why not just move to Canada or Europe?
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