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Old 07-26-2019, 06:35 PM
 
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It seems silly to claim that anywhere in Manhattan is actually a food desert, but there are certainly parts of town where there are no cheaper markets. The Met Foods at Third and 17th is gone, the Associated on West 14th is gone.

I went for the first time to a Fine Fare up on First and 120th for chicken at 49c/pound, and I was thinking of the stretch on the east side which has no cheap markets.

So should the city try some little financial lure to get a company like Fine Fare to open a place in an area that might otherwise be too pricey for them? Like that space on Third near 30th abandoned by Gristede?
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Old 07-26-2019, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
19,715 posts, read 34,826,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cida View Post
It seems silly to claim that anywhere in Manhattan is actually a food desert, but there are certainly parts of town where there are no cheaper markets. The Met Foods at Third and 17th is gone, the Associated on West 14th is gone.

I went for the first time to a Fine Fare up on First and 120th for chicken at 49c/pound, and I was thinking of the stretch on the east side which has no cheap markets.

So should the city try some little financial lure to get a company like Fine Fare to open a place in an area that might otherwise be too pricey for them? Like that space on Third near 30th abandoned by Gristede?
Food desert does not mean cheaper markets. It literally means no supermarkets around you. I used to live in a food desert before Stop N Shop opened in my zip code in 2011. Before that the closest legit supermarket was 2 miles away from my house. Because of that, that particular supermarket has free delivery if you spend over $100, or $200, I forget which. Either way sometimes we still use the supermarket 2 miles away because sometimes we happen to be in the area, and I always see that the shuttle service is frequently utilized.

Yeah if you live in a food desert it means you have no supermarkets within walking distance from you at all.
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Old 07-26-2019, 08:13 PM
 
1,071 posts, read 323,514 times
Reputation: 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cida View Post
It seems silly to claim that anywhere in Manhattan is actually a food desert, but there are certainly parts of town where there are no cheaper markets. The Met Foods at Third and 17th is gone, the Associated on West 14th is gone.

I went for the first time to a Fine Fare up on First and 120th for chicken at 49c/pound, and I was thinking of the stretch on the east side which has no cheap markets.

So should the city try some little financial lure to get a company like Fine Fare to open a place in an area that might otherwise be too pricey for them? Like that space on Third near 30th abandoned by Gristede?

Is the problem landlords increasing rents? Commercial rent control?

"The story of New York City in 2018 is a story of empty storefronts: Nearly every week, another longtime shop or eatery announces that they are closing, after years—if not decades—in business. (Latest addition: The much-loved 35-year-old Tex-Mex joint Tortilla Flats, in the West Village.) In my neighborhood of Astoria, Queens, it’s Steinway Street, a retail strip that’s now undergoing pedestrian-focused improvements to lure back visitors, because there are too many vacancies. And when new tenants do move in, their name is often Starbucks. Or Wells Fargo.

The booming Big Apple has become a “capitalist paradox,”as The Atlantic’s Derek Thompson recently wrote—a “rich ghost town.” As its unique mix of retailers and eateries metamorphose into a monotony of nail salons, chain outlets, and bank branches, the city is becoming “a high-density simulacrum of the American suburb.” Several studies indicate that 20 percent of Manhattan’s storefronts lie vacant—concentrated in the borough’s most trafficked areas, where commercial rents have soared. The worrisome trend—which exists outside of Manhattan, too—suggests a question: What happens when a city becomes too costly to offer the very ingredients that people look for in a city?"

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/...ontrol/574069/
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Old 07-26-2019, 08:27 PM
 
1,940 posts, read 574,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Is the problem landlords increasing rents? Commercial rent control?

"The story of New York City in 2018 is a story of empty storefronts: Nearly every week, another longtime shop or eatery announces that they are closing, after years—if not decades—in business. (Latest addition: The much-loved 35-year-old Tex-Mex joint Tortilla Flats, in the West Village.) In my neighborhood of Astoria, Queens, it’s Steinway Street, a retail strip that’s now undergoing pedestrian-focused improvements to lure back visitors, because there are too many vacancies. And when new tenants do move in, their name is often Starbucks. Or Wells Fargo.

The booming Big Apple has become a “capitalist paradox,”as The Atlantic’s Derek Thompson recently wrote—a “rich ghost town.” As its unique mix of retailers and eateries metamorphose into a monotony of nail salons, chain outlets, and bank branches, the city is becoming “a high-density simulacrum of the American suburb.” Several studies indicate that 20 percent of Manhattan’s storefronts lie vacant—concentrated in the borough’s most trafficked areas, where commercial rents have soared. The worrisome trend—which exists outside of Manhattan, too—suggests a question: What happens when a city becomes too costly to offer the very ingredients that people look for in a city?"

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/...ontrol/574069/
Why are chains associated with the suburbs?
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Old 07-26-2019, 08:59 PM
 
1,071 posts, read 323,514 times
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Originally Posted by Foamposite View Post
Why are chains associated with the suburbs?
NYC used to have mom and pop stores. These stores are usually run by new immigrants families for their communities. Woodside, Queens used to Irish so it had Irish food markets, Irish bars and restaurants. Chinatown had Chinese vegetable and fish markets and Dim Sum restaurants, Carroll Gardens was Italian with Italian markets, cafes and bakeries ,and Greenpoint had Polish cafes, bakeries and butchers. One could purchase different products while hearing different languages or accents on the streets. Neighborhoods had personalities.

Chains are the backbone of strip malls. ShopRite or Stop&Shop are the same in Florida or New York or Wisconsin. If I was blindfolded and dropped into any USA mall, I couldn't guess where I was. It looks all the same.

It probably also have to do with economics. Immigrant families use retail as a way into American society. Suburbs were populated (originally) by second or third generation Americans. Guessing large corporations replaced immigrant families in creating and running stores.

Last edited by YorktownGal; 07-26-2019 at 09:32 PM..
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:54 PM
 
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NYC once had plenty of chain grocery stores.

A&P, Bohack, Pathmark, Red Apple, Waldbaum's, etc.....

Problem is things have changed in both the supermarket industry and NYC as a whole.

First and foremost many of those supermarkets were just as busted, vermin infested and otherwise gross as the small "mom and pop" stores in some area neighborhoods.

Two, small mom and pop markets or whatever began to go out of business as chains or other supermarkets began to appear. This also coincided with housewives and others either because of working or whatever preferring to do all their shopping at once in one store. Instead of going different places for meat, fruit and veggies, etc... supermarkets allowed one stop shopping.

Supermarkets are low margin businesses. They can only charge so much for things before customers look elsewhere. All markets in NYC charge high prices, but some supermarkets were outrageous. The high cost of doing business in this down all but ensures prices will be higher.

People who can then and still today drive out to NJ, LI or Conn to do their grocery shopping to find prices cheaper than Manhattan or parts of the other boroughs. Those who have country homes especially do this, as you can see every Sunday afternoon or evening as those having returned to the city are busy unloading their rides with groceries and things purchased while out in the country.

Places like DAG, Gristedes, some Key Foods and Morton Williams can often best be described as supermarkets of last resort. There isn't anything else in the area, so you have few other choices.

Stores like Balducci's , Zabars, Citarella, Fairway and the other specialty places bridge the gap for those who can afford. They also directly compete with chain supermarkets drawing away some of their customer base. Also now that Duane Reade, Rite Aid, CVS and Walgreens have become quasi supermarkets there again the established chain places just face too much competition.

Reason why many areas don't have supermarkets or are food "deserts" is same why they don't have hospitals (or the ones they have are closing down), and many other things. Local socio-economic demographics don't support.
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Old 07-26-2019, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
19,715 posts, read 34,826,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
NYC once had plenty of chain grocery stores.

A&P, Bohack, Pathmark, Red Apple, Waldbaum's, etc.....

Problem is things have changed in both the supermarket industry and NYC as a whole.

First and foremost many of those supermarkets were just as busted, vermin infested and otherwise gross as the small "mom and pop" stores in some area neighborhoods.

Two, small mom and pop markets or whatever began to go out of business as chains or other supermarkets began to appear. This also coincided with housewives and others either because of working or whatever preferring to do all their shopping at once in one store. Instead of going different places for meat, fruit and veggies, etc... supermarkets allowed one stop shopping.

Supermarkets are low margin businesses. They can only charge so much for things before customers look elsewhere. All markets in NYC charge high prices, but some supermarkets were outrageous. The high cost of doing business in this down all but ensures prices will be higher.

People who can then and still today drive out to NJ, LI or Conn to do their grocery shopping to find prices cheaper than Manhattan or parts of the other boroughs. Those who have country homes especially do this, as you can see every Sunday afternoon or evening as those having returned to the city are busy unloading their rides with groceries and things purchased while out in the country.

Places like DAG, Gristedes, some Key Foods and Morton Williams can often best be described as supermarkets of last resort. There isn't anything else in the area, so you have few other choices.

Stores like Balducci's , Zabars, Citarella, Fairway and the other specialty places bridge the gap for those who can afford. They also directly compete with chain supermarkets drawing away some of their customer base. Also now that Duane Reade, Rite Aid, CVS and Walgreens have become quasi supermarkets there again the established chain places just face too much competition.

Reason why many areas don't have supermarkets or are food "deserts" is same why they don't have hospitals (or the ones they have are closing down), and many other things. Local socio-economic demographics don't support.
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Old 07-26-2019, 10:32 PM
 
1,940 posts, read 574,203 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
NYC used to have mom and pop stores. These stores are usually run by new immigrants families for their communities. Woodside, Queens used to Irish so it had Irish food markets, Irish bars and restaurants. Chinatown had Chinese vegetable and fish markets and Dim Sum restaurants, Carroll Gardens was Italian with Italian markets, cafes and bakeries ,and Greenpoint had Polish cafes, bakeries and butchers. One could purchase different products while hearing different languages or accents on the streets. Neighborhoods had personalities.

Chains are the backbone of strip malls. ShopRite or Stop&Shop are the same in Florida or New York or Wisconsin. If I was blindfolded and dropped into any USA mall, I couldn't guess where I was. It looks all the same.

It probably also have to do with economics. Immigrant families use retail as a way into American society. Suburbs were populated (originally) by second or third generation Americans. Guessing large corporations replaced immigrant families in creating and running stores.
NYC has 5 Chinatowns now and they are all filled with small businesses. There are many Chinese people in the suburbs and they open up small businesses there too. I've been to other parts of the country and it's not true that eveywhere besides NYC is all chains. Small businesses open up in strip malls throughout the country.

Irish people largely left Woodside, so that's why it's not filled with Irish businesses. Instead it is filled with Latino businesses.
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Old 07-27-2019, 03:42 AM
 
71 posts, read 30,330 times
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No, we shouldn't waste tax dollars because some people are too lazy to take the train.
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Old 07-27-2019, 05:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dosun View Post
No, we shouldn't waste tax dollars because some people are too lazy to take the train.
Or bus!

See people all the time getting on at 14th or 34th and Third or First loaded with Trader Joe's bags. That or yes, they are getting on the UES trains at Union Square.
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