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Old Yesterday, 04:55 PM
 
924 posts, read 504,358 times
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So my son-in-law landed a part-time job working for the City of New York - it is not a great job but it will provide some decent experience while he finishes up grad school.

However, he showed us all the NYCAPS - new hire application form (6 pages) in addition to the DOI forms and they want a ridiculous amount of information - release of state and federal tax returns for the past 5 years and proof of any self-employment income (he applied for a JOB, not a mortgage), links and username to all his (and his wife's) social media, release of employment records for all his past employers, fingerprinting (and he has to pay for that), political affiliations - crazy stuff and a disclosure form that allows the DOI to "release" the information as it sees fit - pretty much forever and anywhere.

They also want all the information for my daughter and pretty much anyone who ever lived in their home - whether or not related to them which would technically include his brother who stayed with them after they sold their house while they were waiting for their new home to be built - and his now X-wife - plus the name, address and date of birth of his entire family - siblings, children - and parents. All real property and VEHICLES ever owned - even his driving record and an insane question about whether he or any family member accepted a gift from anyone working for NYC government in the last 12 years. So if his buddy worked for the City and bought him a birthday and christmas gift - he'd have to disclose all the gifts he bought him for the last 12 years? LOL. We got a good laugh out of that one.

I told him to take a pass on the job. It was already offered to him on the condition he undergoes all this investigation. I don't think the information is secure and it is just too much stuff to be in position of some rogue NYC employees. Plus, it is really overkill for the type of part-time job he was offered. Frankly, it is a lot of information -even if you were being hired as MAYOR!

Has anyone else turned down a job because they didn't want to provide this information or have any experience with what these people actually do with all that information?


http://www1.nyc.gov/site/doi/offices/background-investigations-unit.page

Last edited by chattyneighbor; Yesterday at 05:45 PM..

 
Old Yesterday, 05:02 PM
 
792 posts, read 254,018 times
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Wow, I have worked for 3 states and never had to provide all this information.
 
Old Yesterday, 05:06 PM
 
21,601 posts, read 14,326,252 times
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What exactly is the problem?

Scores if not hundreds of private, local and federal government jobs (both direct hires and or contractor) along with military all have various levels of *intrusive* background checks. DOI is hardly alone on that score.

After information is vetted then used as part of hiring process it becomes a permanent part of employee or whoever personnel file. Depending upon job in question certain things might be shared with state or federal government agency.

As to who can see what; back in days of paper files anyone with clerance that gave access could browse to their hearts content. Nowadays with everything digitized usually there are various levels of security clearance. That is what a level one employee can see is limited versus someone higher up the food chain.

People turn down jobs all the time by refusing DOI or whatever background checks. If the process is mandated by law there isn't any way around, so agency will just move onto next applicant. There *might* be a notation in file as to why applicant withdrew themselves for consideration. Will that affect future chances down the road, who knows....
 
Old Yesterday, 05:10 PM
 
924 posts, read 504,358 times
Reputation: 1221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
Wow, I have worked for 3 states and never had to provide all this information.
LOL - Yup. Its insane.
Great fodder for a TV show where the City Council blackmails people to do various different things or donate X amount of dollars or information is "accidentally" and strategically leaked. Actually - it wouldn't even be leaked because they wanted him to sign a consent ALLOWING them to release his confidential information when they deemed it necessity. LOL.

Or a show about the dark web getting all this sensitive info after hacking their NYCAPS data base and setting up fake companies on foreign soil with their tax info.

My son-in-law is passing on the job. We will let someone more desperate then him lay bare their most private and personal information. Besides, his family would kill him for giving THEIR info to the city too.

And even if it wasn't the privacy issue - it would take him the rest of the year to fill all the information out - he'd have to hire an assistant to help him - LOL!

Last edited by chattyneighbor; Yesterday at 05:36 PM..
 
Old Yesterday, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
8,526 posts, read 20,565,891 times
Reputation: 6468
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattyneighbor View Post
So my son-in-law landed a part-time job working for the City of New York - it is not a great job but it will provide some decent experience while he finishes up grad school.

However, he showed us all the NYCAPS - new hire application form (6 pages) in addition to the DOI forms and they want a ridiculous amount of information - release of tax returns, social media links, employment records for all his past employers, fingerprinting (and he has to pay for that) - crazy stuff and a disclosure form that allows the DOI to "release" the information as it sees fit - pretty much forever and anywhere.

They also want all the information for my daughter and pretty much anyone who ever lived in their home - whether or not related to them which would technically include his brother who stayed with them after they sold their house while they were waiting for their new home to be built - and his now X-wife - plus the name, address and date of birth of his entire family - siblings, children - and parents. All real property and VEHICLES ever owned - even his driving record etc. etc.

I told him to take a pass on the job. It was already offered to him on the condition he undergoes all this investigation. I don't think the information is secure and it is just too much stuff to be in position of some rogue NYC employees. Plus, it is really overkill for the type of part-time he was offered. Frankly, it is a lot of information even if you were being hired as MAYOR.

Has anyone else turned down a job because they didn't want to provide this information or have any experience with what these people actually do with all that information?


http://www1.nyc.gov/site/doi/offices/background-investigations-unit.page
Since they only subject 2,00 people a year to this level of background check I would be curious to know what this job is that he is turning down.

This is who it applies to:

Background Investigation Unit

Annually, DOI conducts approximately 2,000 background investigations of new City employees or those promoted to management positions. Those subject to background investigations include all managerial positions, individuals earning more than $100,000 annually, all individuals directly involved in City contracts and individuals who work on the City's computer programs and other sensitive positions.


Sounds reasonable to me.

This doesn't seem to fit with the sort of casual part time job description at the beginning of you post.
 
Old Yesterday, 05:15 PM
 
21,601 posts, read 14,326,252 times
Reputation: 15183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
Wow, I have worked for 3 states and never had to provide all this information.
Were any of those three states New York? More to the point involved New York City?

Finer point what exactly were the positions you applied for in those "three states"?
 
Old Yesterday, 05:25 PM
 
924 posts, read 504,358 times
Reputation: 1221
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog2 View Post
Since they only subject 2,00 people a year to this level of background check I would be curious to know what this job is that he is turning down.

This is who it applies to:

Background Investigation Unit

Annually, DOI conducts approximately 2,000 background investigations of new City employees or those promoted to management positions. Those subject to background investigations include all managerial positions, individuals earning more than $100,000 annually, all individuals directly involved in City contracts and individuals who work on the City's computer programs and other sensitive positions.


Sounds reasonable to me.

This doesn't seem to fit with the sort of casual part time job description at the beginning of you post.
LOL - no, I didn't say what the job was - nor provide his name and address.

Not sure where you came up with 2000 people a year - but to may way of thinking - that is a hell of a lot of people to be collecting all that information on.

Plus, I'm wondering if the quality of the hires MIGHT improve if their first choice candidates weren't all turning down jobs because they refused to subject themselves to that level of scrutiny. My son-in-law was not desperate for the job - but the guy on the bottom of their candidate list may be willing to exchange privacy for work.

Anyway, this is our first foray into NYC government and we were just shocked - and amused - at the amount of information they expected him to provide.
 
Old Yesterday, 05:49 PM
 
21,601 posts, read 14,326,252 times
Reputation: 15183
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattyneighbor View Post
LOL - no, I didn't say what the job was - nor provide his name and address.

Not sure where you came up with 2000 people a year - but to may way of thinking - that is a hell of a lot of people to be collecting all that information on.

Plus, I'm wondering if the quality of the hires MIGHT improve if their first choice candidates weren't all turning down jobs because they refused to subject themselves to that level of scrutiny. My son-in-law was not desperate for the job - but the guy on the bottom of their candidate list may be willing to exchange privacy for work.

Anyway, this is our first foray into NYC government and we were just shocked - and amused - at the amount of information they expected him to provide.
Again, nearly any major private company, and many state/local government agencies, offices, etc... have pretty much same background check requirements (or far more intrusive) once you go about a certain level of hire.

As to the why should think it pretty obvious. Persons dealing with money/awarding contracts, in positions of authority, charged with the care of sick, young, elderly, etc... and many others warrant a higher level of scrutiny at hire. If for nothing else historically various crimes have been committed by such persons and then stuff hits the fan about their "background" which had it been known steps may have been taken.

Even with these requirements in place there still is no shortage of scandals involving NYPD, FDNY, Corrections, and other city workers both uniformed or not. Just several months ago you had this: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...513159281.html

That sad event is only the latest of a long, long, *long*, *LONG* list of NY politicians, civil servants and others caught doing things they shouldn't. More to the point even after being arrested, tried and convicted these eegits can still collect civil service pensions. https://nypost.com/2019/08/28/to-see...-walking-free/

Again if and your son have issues with the process; step aside; there isn't a shortage of applicants for most civil service positions so they will find someone else who doesn't have your quibbles.

As for rest of it; certificate of good conduct/background check is pretty much a routine request by many employers. I've known nurses, teachers, bankers/financial institutions and many others who have had to go down town and have their names and perhaps fingerprints run.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/servi...-requests.page

If you've nothing to hide, then you've nothing to worry about.
 
Old Yesterday, 06:06 PM
 
924 posts, read 504,358 times
Reputation: 1221
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Again, nearly any major private company, and many state/local government agencies, offices, etc... have pretty much same background check requirements (or far more intrusive) once you go about a certain level of hire.

As to the why should think it pretty obvious. Persons dealing with money/awarding contracts, in positions of authority, charged with the care of sick, young, elderly, etc... and many others warrant a higher level of scrutiny at hire. If for nothing else historically various crimes have been committed by such persons and then stuff hits the fan about their "background" which had it been known steps may have been taken.

Even with these requirements in place there still is no shortage of scandals involving NYPD, FDNY, Corrections, and other city workers both uniformed or not. Just several months ago you had this: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...513159281.html

That sad event is only the latest of a long, long, *long*, *LONG* list of NY politicians, civil servants and others caught doing things they shouldn't. More to the point even after being arrested, tried and convicted these eegits can still collect civil service pensions. https://nypost.com/2019/08/28/to-see...-walking-free/

Again if and your son have issues with the process; step aside; there isn't a shortage of applicants for most civil service positions so they will find someone else who doesn't have your quibbles.

As for rest of it; certificate of good conduct/background check is pretty much a routine request by many employers. I've known nurses, teachers, bankers/financial institutions and many others who have had to go down town and have their names and perhaps fingerprints run.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/servi...-requests.page

If you've nothing to hide, then you've nothing to worry about.

We get what you are saying but you seem not to get what we are saying. What's to hide? Uhm - everything. Its called privacy. Its why you post under a username and not your real name.

No quibble with background checks in general. Do a credit check if you must (but in NYC - refusing to hire someone because they have bad credit is illegal anyway) - but why do they need copies of the last 5 years of your tax returns, among other records? Do an employment check if you must - but why do they need to access past employer records? And leave your OTHER family members and living situation out of it. And the fact that they require you to sign a consent form allowing them to release your information - that to me sounds very fishy.

It seems like this system creates scandal - not wards off corruption. They are so frightened of missing something - that they ask for everything - whether or not it makes sense. Frankly, the more information they get - the less likely they are to actually miss something important, instead of just obtaining what is truly relevant to the process.

But this is more about wondering how many potential quality employees they LOSE every year, BECAUSE they rather protect their personal data then take the job?
 
Old Yesterday, 06:21 PM
 
21,601 posts, read 14,326,252 times
Reputation: 15183
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattyneighbor View Post
We get what you are saying but you seem not to get what we are saying. What's to hide? Uhm - everything. Its called privacy. Its why you post under a username and not your real name.

No quibble with background checks in general. Do a credit check if you must (but in NYC - refusing to hire someone because they have bad credit is illegal anyway) - but why do they need copies of the last 5 years of your tax returns, among other records? Do an employment check if you must - but why do they need to access past employer records? And leave your OTHER family members and living situation out of it. And the fact that they require you to sign a consent form allowing them to release your information - that to me sounds very fishy.

It seems like this system creates scandal - not wards off corruption. They are so frightened of missing something - that they ask for everything - whether or not it makes sense. Frankly, the more information they get - the less likely they are to actually miss something important, instead of just obtaining what is truly relevant to the process.

But this is more about wondering how many potential quality employees they LOSE every year, BECAUSE they rather protect their personal data then take the job?
Consent comes in when another agency or office wants access to record for their own investigations for a start. If someone is doing something they ought not to be it hardly seems wise to tip them off by asking their permission for release of personnel information.

A cop, fireman, civil servant or anyone else living above their head is one of the first clues their up to something. A person who made $55k last year is living like he's pulling down $255k means something doesn't add up.

As it relates to things near and dear to some people on this forum when a civil servant (especially NYPD, FDNY, or Corrections) does something wrong first thing they want is access to employment records including disciplinary.

Family members, spouse or and or anyone else living in same home is fair game because civil servant is obviously exposed to such persons. It is not unknown for say a cop or whatever to get into something because of the wife/spouse. That and or if a family member is doing something they shouldn't be doing it is a way to get at the civil servant. You think everyone on NYC payroll including elected officials, attorneys, commissioners, assistant commissioners, etc.. put everything they take home on lock down?

More to the point there is no shortage of weak a$$ed men (both gay and straight) who have gotten in to trouble when their spouse, partner, or whoever they are shacking up with put it on them to get certain information they sold or whatever.

If your son is dealing drugs, daughter working the streets, etc.. these are all things that can affect a civil servant/employee. Thus fair game for a background check.

Credit checks are nearly worthless for background information in NYS. Unlike other places NY law forbids criminal convictions from being listed in credit reports. Liens, bankruptices etc.. all fall off reports after a certain period of time. Credit reports are just that; and far as NYS is concerned much public information isn't included, for that you have to do a records search.

OTOH if you've ever been arrested and certainly convicted, a certificate of good conduct/criminal back ground check will bring up those records. Does not matter if the event occurred outside of NYS; if things were reported to feds/FBI they will remain and can be found.
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