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Old 09-20-2019, 05:06 PM
 
21,729 posts, read 14,401,806 times
Reputation: 15268

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
Interesting reading on our self defense laws ..but remember nothing is ever black and white , just different shades of gray

https://lawofselfdefense.com/jury-in...e-of-a-person/
Nothing in that link disputed what myself and others are saying; if someone is *running away* obviously you are no longer defending yourself against a threat and or actual physical attack.

If some guy jumps you with a knife or is dishing out a beat down as in clip above, yes you can fight back and even beat your attacker to a pulp (maybe even kill), long as said attacker keeps going at you. OTOH the guy is laying motionless or otherwise not doing anything it is hard to justify continued use of force.

On a note near and dear to many on this board, that argument is used against NYPD in cases of citizen deaths and or injuries all the time.

I watch lots of old school 1970's police/detective dramas (Cannon, Mannix,etc...) where you have LE shooting people in the back as they are running away. This after thug or whatever in question fired a shot at them first. Try that today and see what happens.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:19 PM
 
495 posts, read 127,730 times
Reputation: 701
The victim was

A good boy
Got a pregnant girlfriend
Has young kid
Was about to go back to college

What Reverend All Sharpton will say
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:20 PM
 
748 posts, read 257,399 times
Reputation: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Nothing in that link disputed what myself and others are saying; if someone is *running away* obviously you are no longer defending yourself against a threat and or actual physical attack.

If some guy jumps you with a knife or is dishing out a beat down as in clip above, yes you can fight back and even beat your attacker to a pulp (maybe even kill), long as said attacker keeps going at you. OTOH the guy is laying motionless or otherwise not doing anything it is hard to justify continued use of force.

On a note near and dear to many on this board, that argument is used against NYPD in cases of citizen deaths and or injuries all the time.

I watch lots of old school 1970's police/detective dramas (Cannon, Mannix,etc...) where you have LE shooting people in the back as they are running away. This after thug or whatever in question fired a shot at them first. Try that today and see what happens.
In todays world LE usually gets assigned desk duty, paid leave, or get to keep their job after the incident where they killed someone when their was no threat to them. Its rare, very rare that LE gets tried for murder and convicted after using the "fear for my life" excuse. Thankfully more and more cameras are watching to keep them in check to remind them that they are public servants and should always try to deescalate a situation rather escalating because they "feared for their life".
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:29 PM
 
96 posts, read 77,652 times
Reputation: 112
What a tough and sad story. I think most would say they would use lethal force to protect themselves and loved ones but when you're in a situation where that line isn't so clear I would imagine it would be especially difficult to cope with taking another person's life.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:46 PM
 
8,495 posts, read 5,539,559 times
Reputation: 9834
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxyknoxy View Post
The victim was

A good boy
Got a pregnant girlfriend
Has young kid
Was about to go back to college

What Reverend All Sharpton will say
Based on the "Black Lives Matter" placard that is on the door i am guessing that the homeowner is a black dude.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:52 PM
 
73,599 posts, read 73,452,884 times
Reputation: 51202
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Nothing in that link disputed what myself and others are saying; if someone is *running away* obviously you are no longer defending yourself against a threat and or actual physical attack.

If some guy jumps you with a knife or is dishing out a beat down as in clip above, yes you can fight back and even beat your attacker to a pulp (maybe even kill), long as said attacker keeps going at you. OTOH the guy is laying motionless or otherwise not doing anything it is hard to justify continued use of force.

On a note near and dear to many on this board, that argument is used against NYPD in cases of citizen deaths and or injuries all the time.

I watch lots of old school 1970's police/detective dramas (Cannon, Mannix,etc...) where you have LE shooting people in the back as they are running away. This after thug or whatever in question fired a shot at them first. Try that today and see what happens.
The link was never an attempt to dispute anything that was said. But there is a big difference in the real world once lawyers and courts get a hold of facts .. so self defense cases are rarely just a black and white case like the book of rules say ...

I have studied under the country’s number 1 expert in self defense cases and self defense training ,who serves as expert testimony and master trainer for the military and law enforcement as well as runs lethal force institute .....the cases he has testified in would blow your minds as to what is questioned and looked at in self defense issues .

For example if a female is attacked by two unarmed men , if she shoots the first attacker , does she have the right to shoot the 2nd attacker .? This is the types of cases he gets called in on ....they end up being not just black and white ...another case had a guy who hand loaded his own ammo because it’s cheaper. The problem was the question came up from the residue as to how close he was to the bad guy when he shot ....

The prosecutor felt the good guy was farther away then he said he was and did not have to shoot ...but because the hand loads were not consistent in exact samples he had trouble demonstrating how far away he was ...

The list of cases goes on and on that massad ayoob has been called in on and goes on and on as cases that look black and white to the public end up being minefields in court .

Last edited by mathjak107; 09-20-2019 at 06:07 PM..
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:34 PM
 
Location: NY
4,426 posts, read 1,169,307 times
Reputation: 2592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
Yeah, that's my point.

He wasn't in a self-defense situation.

Being out of "visual range" of his house doesn't negate self-defense. Chasing the perp down, then assaulting him with a weapon when he is no longer presenting a threat most certainly does though.


Opinion:

Absolutely Correct.

Vigilante justice belongs to a non society.

A simple citizens arrest would have been sufficient with and added .....ahem...non life threatening punch or two for good licks.

It will be a story with a sad ending.

The perp is dead without ever having any chance of ever turning his life around.

The home owner will see jail time.
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:43 PM
 
Location: NY
4,426 posts, read 1,169,307 times
Reputation: 2592
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
The link was never an attempt to dispute anything that was said. But there is a big difference in the real world once lawyers and courts get a hold of facts .. so self defense cases are rarely just a black and white case like the book of rules say ...

I have studied under the country’s number 1 expert in self defense cases and self defense training ,who serves as expert testimony and master trainer for the military and law enforcement as well as runs lethal force institute .....the cases he has testified in would blow your minds as to what is questioned and looked at in self defense issues .

For example if a female is attacked by two unarmed men , if she shoots the first attacker , does she have the right to shoot the 2nd attacker .? This is the types of cases he gets called in on ....they end up being not just black and white ...another case had a guy who hand loaded his own ammo because it’s cheaper. The problem was the question came up from the residue as to how close he was to the bad guy when he shot ....

The prosecutor felt the good guy was farther away then he said he was and did not have to shoot ...but because the hand loads were not consistent in exact samples he had trouble demonstrating how far away he was ...

The list of cases goes on and on that massad ayoob has been called in on and goes on and on as cases that look black and white to the public end up being minefields in court .

Excerpt:
For example if a female is attacked by two unarmed men , if she shoots the first attacker , does she have the right to shoot the 2nd attacker .?


Opinion:
If there is no longer a threat the answer is No.
If she shoots to remove the possibility of a threat she is in big trouble.
Cops face this every day. They are sitting ducks. They can only respond after being shot at.............sickening.
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Old 09-21-2019, 03:29 AM
 
73,599 posts, read 73,452,884 times
Reputation: 51202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Retired View Post
Excerpt:
For example if a female is attacked by two unarmed men , if she shoots the first attacker , does she have the right to shoot the 2nd attacker .?


Opinion:
If there is no longer a threat the answer is No.
If she shoots to remove the possibility of a threat she is in big trouble.
Cops face this every day. They are sitting ducks. They can only respond after being shot at.............sickening.
the actual answer was it depends on the size disparity and that is what was argued in court . ultimately the woman won after shooting both almost simultaneously but not at the exact same moment . of course she had massad on her side .
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:19 PM
 
495 posts, read 127,730 times
Reputation: 701
Look at this wonderful member of society! What does he need to do to get locked up for life?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...utors-say.html
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