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Old 10-03-2019, 08:43 PM
 
2,265 posts, read 705,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshanarose View Post
No. It's also about the kind of work someone does and the education level they have.

Do they have a college degree? A Master's degree?
Do they work with their brain, or with their hands?
Not for nothing but this seems like an elitist position to hold. Someone who's an electrician or plumber (the types of blue collar jobs that are middle class and up) are absolutely using both their brains and hands when they work.
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:33 PM
 
21,776 posts, read 14,457,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foamposite View Post
Not for nothing but this seems like an elitist position to hold. Someone who's an electrician or plumber (the types of blue collar jobs that are middle class and up) are absolutely using both their brains and hands when they work.
Again with this?

Working, middle, upper class distinctions are all constructs. There is nothing other than a set of values largely determined subjectively that puts households into either of said demographics.

In broadest meaning working class includes anyone who is engaged in manual labor in exchange for wages especially those paid by hour. Thus any sort of employment where you clock/sign in or out is "working class". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class

Management (white collar) OTOH does not normally clock in/out, and are compensated based upon set rates/packages. Unlike blue collar workers they normally do not get OT and are paid same if they work 40 or 50 hours per week.

Very broadly working class also defines sets of educational achievement, social values and intellectual or cultural interests.

Though obviously not true across board historically "working class" or blue collar jobs did not require a four year college degree. OTOH middle class/management positions often do require college degrees and or even post graduate.

Advent and extensive use of credit has blurred distinctions between all classes. It is entirely possible to live above one's head. Long as a household has a decent to great credit rating and is willing to make payments each month.... Hence all the trappings that once signified middle class or above lifestyle no longer truly apply.

Anyone can own a Mercedes-Benz or BMW, go on vacations to Europe, Asia, etc... Again long as they are willing to make those credit card payments each month.

Case in point some UES building supers live better lives than many of the tenants in their buildings. They take trips to Europe or elsewhere several times per year. Have a sweet ride, nice clothes, etc... Something not totally lost upon some residents who get their noses out of joint when they hear the guy is on vacation "again", and where he went.

As have frequently said, there are guys out on SI and parts of Brooklyn who technically are "working class", but could buy and sell many on this board several times over.

They *own* their homes (as opposed to renting), have two or more nice cars, their kids are in private schools and or go to good private colleges instead of relying on only CUNY or SUNY. They also own second or even third homes, take trips to Europe and elsewhere every year, and so it goes.
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Old Yesterday, 05:00 AM
 
3,736 posts, read 2,279,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foamposite View Post
Not for nothing but this seems like an elitist position to hold. Someone who's an electrician or plumber (the types of blue collar jobs that are middle class and up) are absolutely using both their brains and hands when they work.
The whole idea of there being "classes" - middle, working, upper, etc. - is elitist.

I don't know what to tell you. I could sugar-coat it if you like.
But many teachers who tend to earn less than nurses, still prefer being teachers because they went to college or graduate school, enjoy helping students learn to read, write, learn history, etc. They don't want to have to empty a bedpan or clean up vomit, regardless of the fact that as a Associates-degree level nurse they would earn more money.
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Old Yesterday, 05:22 AM
 
21,776 posts, read 14,457,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshanarose View Post
The whole idea of there being "classes" - middle, working, upper, etc. - is elitist.

I don't know what to tell you. I could sugar-coat it if you like.
But many teachers who tend to earn less than nurses, still prefer being teachers because they went to college or graduate school, enjoy helping students learn to read, write, learn history, etc. They don't want to have to empty a bedpan or clean up vomit, regardless of the fact that as a Associates-degree level nurse they would earn more money.
Nearly all major NYC hospitals long stopped hiring ADN prepared nurses almost a decade ago. Northwell (formerly North Shore-LIJ), Mount Sinai, NYP, Montefiore, etc... all are BSN "preferred" or outright mandated. On occasion the odd newly licensed ADN nurse *might* get hired, but usually she (or he) is already enrolled in a bridge program, and the understanding is that will obtain the BSN or else.

Besides NYS recently made the BSN in 10 mandatory. All ADN graduate nurses have ten years from that date to get their BSN or their will forfeit their nursing license.

There are places that hire ADN nurses, but mostly nursing homes, rehab, dialysis, home care, etc...

Historically all "pink collar ghetto" jobs such as nursing and teaching have not paid well. Nursing has leaped ahead of teaching in terms of pay, but the latter long has traded high wages for other compensation.

At least in public school systems throughout NYS enjoy a strong and secure pension, healthcare and other bennies.

As for emptying bedpans or cleaning up vomit, much of what people think nurses do (or used to do) long has been handed over to aides, techs, patient care associates. Am not saying RNs don't do such things, but many nurses are stressed out just doing the things legally only a RN can do ( give meds, treatments, etc...) that there is little time for much else.
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Old Yesterday, 11:35 AM
 
2,265 posts, read 705,933 times
Reputation: 1648
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshanarose View Post
The whole idea of there being "classes" - middle, working, upper, etc. - is elitist.

I don't know what to tell you. I could sugar-coat it if you like.
But many teachers who tend to earn less than nurses, still prefer being teachers because they went to college or graduate school, enjoy helping students learn to read, write, learn history, etc. They don't want to have to empty a bedpan or clean up vomit, regardless of the fact that as a Associates-degree level nurse they would earn more money.
Why do you seem to think being a teacher is inherently a "smarter" job than being a nurse? Nurses have a vast knowledge of medical issues and have to apply that knowledge in real time.

And teacher salary varies a lot. In the NYC suburbs they tend to get paid a ton of money within 5 to 10 years.

And I've never heard of people with good salaries not being considered middle class just because they work non-intellectual jobs. Staten Island is the most prosperous borough and aside from some impoverished neighborhoods in the Northern part, it is widely middle class and up.

Sure class is a social construct, but in the context of a city forum like this one, terms like "working class" and "middle class" are very widely used to refer to income.
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Old Yesterday, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
9,097 posts, read 7,335,294 times
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There's cops who makes well over $150,000. I wouldn't call them working class. Hell I make only a little less than that and sit at a computer most of my time. You're not going to convince me that I'm the same "class" as an "undocumented" handyman.
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Old Yesterday, 12:35 PM
 
2,627 posts, read 1,169,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshanarose View Post
A homeless alcoholic with a PhD would not be "working class".
He would be considered a middle class or upper middle class person who fell on hard times.
After all, if he cleans himself up, goes to rehab, he has the earning power of someone with a PhD.

Class is generally determined by taking into account not only current income but also education level, level of savings/assets, etc.

For example, a plumber who earns 100K might still be considered working class.

As might a nurse/RN who earns 55K.

While a social worker or teacher who earn 45K may be considered middle class. (Most people do not consider teachers working class) Why? Because it takes more education in many cases to be a social worker or a teacher than to be an RN, but RN's may still earn more.

Policemen who earn 70K? Working class.
See?
I see that you want to think that your master's degree in sociology or what have you makes you a higher-class person. But it doesn't. Like probably most degrees these days, it likely means that you made bad life decisions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euL_RWN2rq4
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Old Yesterday, 12:58 PM
 
2,627 posts, read 1,169,565 times
Reputation: 1521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshanarose View Post
See that's just it: for white collar/middle class people, it's not all about money.
For working class/blue collar people, it is.
Really? Do you think that a partner at Cravath would agree that he's in the same class as a public defender in some rural county in West Virginia, just because they both went to law school?
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Old Yesterday, 01:01 PM
 
Location: NY
4,472 posts, read 1,186,433 times
Reputation: 2623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
There's cops who makes well over $150,000. I wouldn't call them working class. Hell I make only a little less than that and sit at a computer most of my time. You're not going to convince me that I'm the same "class" as an "undocumented" handyman.
Opininon:
Hahahahahahah...good one!

If you can pay your bills. You ain't not low class.
If you can't afford a jet liner. You ain't high class.
If you can make it to a comfortable retirement you are middle class.
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Old Yesterday, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
9,097 posts, read 7,335,294 times
Reputation: 8607
Quote:
Originally Posted by fat lou View Post
I see that you want to think that your master's degree in sociology or what have you makes you a higher-class person. But it doesn't. Like probably most degrees these days, it likely means that you made bad life decisions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euL_RWN2rq4
And in way more debt that a plumber, cop or nurse!
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