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Old 10-04-2019, 09:17 PM
 
2,001 posts, read 731,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
I'll never forget my 4 tours over there.

Of course, I thank you for your service too (and I can thank you both as a person from the Balkans, and as a naturalized American). The US intervention had in effect ended that idiotic war, with the Dayton Agreement which physically separated the three mutually more or less intolerant groups as much as it was possible - at the cost of mass displacement of people from their homes, but that was the only practically effective solution.



BUT - I don't constantly harp about ethnic discrimination through which I lived as a kid, I don't color my entire life by that discrimination, and I don't constantly blame the history of the Balkans for any and all of my own personal shortcomings. Most of all, I do not excuse any war crimes comitted by "my" nation as being due to history of ethnic discrimination against "my" nation (yes, "my" nation was subjected to discrimination, and yes, I experienced that discrimination myself - but I do not see that as an excuse for retaliatory war crimes comitted by some members of "my" nation. I do not think that criminals who came out of "my" nation need understanding and compassion, just because they were discriminated against, and therefore might have made some "wrong choices" - I think they need serious punishment). Neither ethnic nor personal history of discrimination can excuse irresponsible or even criminal behavior of an individual - whether that individual is a Bosnian Serb or an African American. I actually understand that very well, despite Seventh's constant repeating that I don't get it. Actually, I totally do get it, I am very thoroughly familiar with "it" (as you correctly noticed in your four tours of duty in the Balkans, skin color is not particularly unique as an ethnic difference - any other difference, no matter how small, can be used with equal significance for ethnic hostility. In church, Croat Catholics cross themselves from right to left, and Serbian Orthodox from left to right - and that is a BIIIG! difference, much bigger than skin color, if you are conditioned to see THAT as a big difference :-).

Last edited by elnrgby; 10-04-2019 at 10:04 PM..
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
9,139 posts, read 7,359,152 times
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If you don’t mind me asking, where are you from?

I spent most of my time in the US sector in Bosnia (Tuzla/Sarejevo/Zvornik/Doboj/Brcko, etc) and then all over Kosovo and northern Macedonia.
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:15 AM
 
4,022 posts, read 1,497,217 times
Reputation: 1869
Certain type of policing styles, like the ones we are discussing are well intentioned. The goal is to improve the quality of life and safety of the citizens. Perfectly understand that. Once implemented efforts are made to quantify the results. Then it becomes a matter of how you obtain and measure the data. Then some can become laser focused on, we arrested so many, we stopped so many, crime numbers are x. Assuming the numbers are accurate that still misses the greater point of improving the quality of life for the citizens in an area. That can lead to many unintended negative consequences. In areas like the one around the Edenwald projects the urban ecosystem is a delicate balance of working class people, middle class, working poor, and the hustlers, criminals, and those who can't leave due to Disabality and other factors. When the working class and middle class have to face the dangers of criminals and the effects of aggressive policing that effects them and their families, this causes them to leave the area. When those people leave they are replaced often by more people who gravitate towards criminal behaviors. Thus the job of the police gets even harder and more dangerous and the original focus on quality of life is lost. You help to win a battle and lose the war.
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Old 10-05-2019, 10:02 AM
 
Location: New York, NY
2,857 posts, read 2,412,309 times
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I agree that people shouldn’t use their race as an excuse for failure or to commit crimes because they’re blaming it on “the man” or whomever. A successful person embraces failure and accepts responsibility instead of blaming others. To be successful may take many attempts. But that wasn’t the point.

The point is thinking everyone of a racial group behaves a certain way or is more prone to crime because they have grown up in poverty. Poverty doesn’t necessarily correlate with crime - a lack of morals do.
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Old 10-05-2019, 10:59 AM
 
2,001 posts, read 731,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
If you don’t mind me asking, where are you from?

I spent most of my time in the US sector in Bosnia (Tuzla/Sarejevo/Zvornik/Doboj/Brcko, etc) and then all over Kosovo and northern Macedonia.

No, I don't mind the question, but the answer is complicated... complicated even for the Balkans :-). My mom and dad saw each other on their first day at the university (that would be the Univ of Zagreb, Croatia), went nuts about each other, are still nuts about each other 66 years later, but the problem was that dad was a member of the proper local majority (ie, a proper Croat), while mom was a member of the locally harassed and hated minority (ie, a Serb). My parents were professionals of sorts (teaching professions), so as was common for professional women in that part of the world, my parents turfed childcare to my mom's parents (my grandparents) so that mom could focus on her work. So far so good - my grandparents were wonderful people whom I loved very much, but they were indeed of Serbian ethnicity, which obviously rubbed onto who I was, even though I grew up entirely in Zagreb, the capital of Croatia. If you listened to me speaking my native language, I speak it with northern Croatian grammar and accent, but I use a lot of Serbian vocabulary... all Croats I ever met seemed to think I was a Serb, and all Serbs I ever met seemed to think I was a Croat... or, in short, everybody over there always seemed to think I was "the other", or I was "them", or I was "the enemy", or I was "the scum" :-)... not the greatest situation to be in, which I resolved by becoming a naturalized American, and losing all interest in things over there... in this century, I have been about a dozen times to Asia (where I am right now too) and never again to the Balkans.


Anyway, Zagreb, Croatia is very, very different from the eastern parts of ex-Yu where you were stationed (I have passed through Macedonia only once in my life, on the way to Greece, and have never been to Kosovo. I have been to Sarajevo many times, though - it was a very cool city in the 1970s. Before it became a city of destruction/genocide, it was a city of rock 'n' roll. Ex-Yu had the best bands outside of Anglo countries, and the best of the best were from Sarajevo. That's the only thing I ever missed from my native country, the Balkan rock... oh man... Bodo Kovacevic's guitar riffs... :-). Anyway, every part of ex-Yu was very different, and Zagreb was sort of like a more provincial version of Vienna, sort of like Austria (unsurprisingly, since it had been a part of Habsburg Monarchy for around 500 years). Any hint of Serbian element was hated in Zagreb with passion, still is hated with varying degrees of passion. But that was Zagreb, Croatia - you could say much different, and sometimes opposite, things about the part of the forner country that you saw.



But the only reason why my Balkan origins wandered into this thread is that I wanted to say to Sevents Floor (who thinks that I am not getting it about "race" issues in NYC) that I was in fact deeply familiar with ethnic conflict, of which racial conflict is only a sub-category. People in the US think that skin color differences are the biggest possible basis for an ethnic conflict just because they were/are the biggest basis for it in the US - but skin color issue is in fact totally unnecessary for a horrible ethnic conflict, as shown in my ex-native country (where everyone was white) or Rwanda (where everyone was black). It is not the skin color that is at the root of these things - it is always the same "tribal" behavior, no matter what triggers it, skin speech religion you-name-it. So when "historically victimized" people try to unfairly manipulate situations using "historic victimhood" as the excuse, I can see clearly what they are doing... I have seen it all before, it is the remake of the same bad movie from my childhood, only in a different language and multi-racial actors, but it is the same movie.

Last edited by elnrgby; 10-05-2019 at 11:07 AM..
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Old 10-05-2019, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
20,483 posts, read 35,438,929 times
Reputation: 8802
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
No, I don't mind the question, but the answer is complicated... complicated even for the Balkans :-). My mom and dad saw each other on their first day at the university (that would be the Univ of Zagreb, Croatia), went nuts about each other, are still nuts about each other 66 years later, but the problem was that dad was a member of the proper local majority (ie, a proper Croat), while mom was a member of the locally harassed and hated minority (ie, a Serb). My parents were professionals of sorts (teaching professions), so as was common for professional women in that part of the world, my parents turfed childcare to my mom's parents (my grandparents) so that mom could focus on her work. So far so good - my grandparents were wonderful people whom I loved very much, but they were indeed of Serbian ethnicity, which obviously rubbed onto who I was, even though I grew up entirely in Zagreb, the capital of Croatia. If you listened to me speaking my native language, I speak it with northern Croatian grammar and accent, but I use a lot of Serbian vocabulary... all Croats I ever met seemed to think I was a Serb, and all Serbs I ever met seemed to think I was a Croat... or, in short, everybody over there always seemed to think I was "the other", or I was "them", or I was "the enemy", or I was "the scum" :-)... not the greatest situation to be in, which I resolved by becoming a naturalized American, and losing all interest in things over there... in this century, I have been about a dozen times to Asia (where I am right now too) and never again to the Balkans.


Anyway, Zagreb, Croatia is very, very different from the eastern parts of ex-Yu where you were stationed (I have passed through Macedonia only once in my life, on the way to Greece, and have never been to Kosovo. I have been to Sarajevo many times, though - it was a very cool city in the 1970s. Before it became a city of destruction/genocide, it was a city of rock 'n' roll. Ex-Yu had the best bands outside of Anglo countries, and the best of the best were from Sarajevo. That's the only thing I ever missed from my native country, the Balkan rock... oh man... Bodo Kovacevic's guitar riffs... :-). Anyway, every part of ex-Yu was very different, and Zagreb was sort of like a more provincial version of Vienna, sort of like Austria (unsurprisingly, since it had been a part of Habsburg Monarchy for around 500 years). Any hint of Serbian element was hated in Zagreb with passion, still is hated with varying degrees of passion. But that was Zagreb, Croatia - you could say much different, and sometimes opposite, things about the part of the forner country that you saw.



But the only reason why my Balkan origins wandered into this thread is that I wanted to say to Sevents Floor (who thinks that I am not getting it about "race" issues in NYC) that I was in fact deeply familiar with ethnic conflict, of which racial conflict is only a sub-category. People in the US think that skin color differences are the biggest possible basis for an ethnic conflict just because they were/are the biggest basis for it in the US - but skin color issue is in fact totally unnecessary for a horrible ethnic conflict, as shown in my ex-native country (where everyone was white) or Rwanda (where everyone was black). It is not the skin color that is at the root of these things - it is always the same "tribal" behavior, no matter what triggers it, skin speech religion you-name-it. So when "historically victimized" people try to unfairly manipulate situations using "historic victimhood" as the excuse, I can see clearly what they are doing... I have seen it all before, it is the remake of the same bad movie from my childhood, only in a different language and multi-racial actors, but it is the same movie.
So it's a competition now? Smh.
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Old 10-05-2019, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
9,139 posts, read 7,359,152 times
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I too refuse to acknowledge victimhood. My father’s family is Armenian. They fled our genocide as I’m sure you experienced in Yugoslavia. They had to change the spelling of our last name to garner acceptance, even in NYC! I can’t imagine what the first members of my bloodline experienced. But they worked - hard. They refused to commit crimes and join gangs. They made sure their kids paid attention in school, they bought houses, they didn’t complain. So here I am now. The same path is open to everyone.
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Old 10-05-2019, 12:33 PM
 
4,022 posts, read 1,497,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
I too refuse to acknowledge victimhood. My fatherís family is Armenian. They fled our genocide as Iím sure you experienced in Yugoslavia. They had to change the spelling of our last name to garner acceptance, even in NYC! I canít imagine what the first members of my bloodline experienced. But they worked - hard. They refused to commit crimes and join gangs. They made sure their kids paid attention in school, they bought houses, they didnít complain. So here I am now. The same path is open to everyone.
Well I came out of some rough projects and did not cling to victim status. I am successful. Did not commit crimes. Did not take the easy way. Not taking the easy way, my wife and I stayed in the Bronx. We add to the tax base, vote, do jury duty, sweep in front of our house, serve as an example to our child and children who observe us working and contributing in our neighborhood that is middle class/with many on public assitance section 8, and we have the Castle Hill projects not too far away. Any policing strategy implemented should respect people like me and not make me feel uncomforble. I expect the criminals to be jerks, that's why we have the police. By and large my interactions with cops have been pleasant. I called the police a year ago to my home and when they came, we shared bottles of water and soda as it was hot outside and they were guests to our homes. But when people like me raise a complaint it's not because we are being unreasonable.
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Old 10-05-2019, 01:44 PM
 
Location: NY
4,589 posts, read 1,213,392 times
Reputation: 2666
Opinion:
Look to the Young Black Leadership Summit to break the Democratic Chains of imprisonment and containment.
Gone will be the stereotyping of the African American. Gone will be the day of African American
grabbing the spotlight of News Crime every evening. These young men and woman are woke.
They Love America. They are proud Americans. They represent the direction of our great country.
Being a proud working American is the cure against poverty,crime and leads to affluence and success.
I would be happy and honored to call anyone young person in this room a member of my family.................
May God Bless and watch over you......................


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rn2rra6-6s

Last edited by Mr.Retired; 10-05-2019 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 10-05-2019, 02:16 PM
 
4,022 posts, read 1,497,217 times
Reputation: 1869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Retired View Post
Opinion:
Look to the Young Black Leadership Summit to break the Democratic Chains of imprisonment and containment.
Gone will be the stereotyping of the African American. Gone will be the day of African American
grabbing the spotlight of News Crime every evening. These young men and woman are woke.
They Love America. They are proud Americans. They represent the direction of our great country.
Being a proud working American is the cure against poverty,crime and leads to affluence and success.
I would be happy and honored to call anyone young person in this room a member of my family.................
May God Bless and watch over you......................


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rn2rra6-6s
So blacks in the City today are not hard working, patriotic, and moving to successful lives now ? So your solution is that if all blacks were Republicans all social problems would be resolved ? Guess what I know black Republicans. I have voted Republican several times in National and local elections and guess what, we still have been stereotyped by not what we think or by what political party we support. Instead we have been stopped and harassed based on our appearance alone. Your retired, great, but that does not forgive or explain how you have chosen to bury your head in the sand of nostalgia and ideology.
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