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Old 10-03-2019, 08:49 PM
 
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No. Broken windows responds to people's (illegal) actions. Stop and frisk was profiling, because the people stopped weren't doing anything visibly illegal.

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Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
Broken Windows is just another way to profile people
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
No. Broken windows responds to people's (illegal) actions. Stop and frisk was profiling, because the people stopped weren't doing anything visibly illegal.
Why no Broken Windows theory in Manhattan then? You telling me ppl dont break quality of life laws with all the bars, nightlife and such?
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:22 PM
 
Location: New Jersey!!!!
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Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
Why no Broken Windows theory in Manhattan then? You telling me ppl dont break quality of life laws with all the bars, nightlife and such?
"Broken Windows" was developed in Manhattan (Times Square to be exact) and has always been there. Manhattan has special units specifically tailored to its unique conditions. For example, Manhattan has peddler enforcement units that address illegal vendors, a "broken windows" issue.

In fact, I'd posit that today, Manhattan might be the last borough that still has aggressive enforcement of "broken windows"-style policing, specifically in tourist areas to keep those places desirable.
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
"Broken Windows" was developed in Manhattan (Times Square to be exact) and has always been there. Manhattan has special units specifically tailored to its unique conditions. For example, Manhattan has peddler enforcement units that address illegal vendors, a "broken windows" issue.

In fact, I'd posit that today, Manhattan might be the last borough that still has aggressive enforcement of "broken windows"-style policing, specifically in tourist areas to keep those places desirable.
Then I feel it took on a different monster in the outer boroughs.
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
Broken Windows is just another way to profile people

And why is profiling actually a problem? The purpose of profiling is to narrow the search for a perpetrator of a particular crime down to the type of people who are most likely to have commited that crime. That would be people with a previous criminal record. What should police be doing instead of profiling - should they be searching for possible serious criminals among nuns? If the profiled person turns out not to be involved in anything criminal, and the police just let them go after checking them out, what is the big deal?


I know someone who, in the 1970s, was detained and questioned for a couple of hours on two occasions, at two different borders in Europe, because she had a tremendous facial similarity with some German terrorist woman. The second time it happened, she actually knew what the issue was (because of the previous experience), and asked right away to simply be fingerprinted. I already described an occasion when I was taking photos inside the hospital where I trained, for sentimental reasons (as I was leaving the place), and was questioned by hospital security because I was wandering around one of the hospital pharmacies with a camera at night. But then they checked my ID badge, I explained the situation, they called the department where I trained (and that department is very much active at night), and everything was straightened out in 30 min. If you look the way certain criminals look, or do something that a criminal might do, of course police will be interested in you. Police and security people are just doing their job, but if you are NOT an actual criminal, what is the reason to worry about getting profiled?
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Old 10-04-2019, 05:12 AM
 
33,886 posts, read 47,070,732 times
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Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
And why is profiling actually a problem? The purpose of profiling is to narrow the search for a perpetrator of a particular crime down to the type of people who are most likely to have commited that crime. That would be people with a previous criminal record. What should police be doing instead of profiling - should they be searching for possible serious criminals among nuns? If the profiled person turns out not to be involved in anything criminal, and the police just let them go after checking them out, what is the big deal?


I know someone who, in the 1970s, was detained and questioned for a couple of hours on two occasions, at two different borders in Europe, because she had a tremendous facial similarity with some German terrorist woman. The second time it happened, she actually knew what the issue was (because of the previous experience), and asked right away to simply be fingerprinted. I already described an occasion when I was taking photos inside the hospital where I trained, for sentimental reasons (as I was leaving the place), and was questioned by hospital security because I was wandering around one of the hospital pharmacies with a camera at night. But then they checked my ID badge, I explained the situation, they called the department where I trained (and that department is very much active at night), and everything was straightened out in 30 min. If you look the way certain criminals look, or do something that a criminal might do, of course police will be interested in you. Police and security people are just doing their job, but if you are NOT an actual criminal, what is the reason to worry about getting profiled?
The hospital security did their job as they were supposed to. You were on private property. Had they not handled the situation correctly, you would have not been pleased. Now imagine if you were in the street and you got profiled and its just your luck the officers profiling you had a bad day. We’ve all made mistakes at work. I can’t afford for somebody to make a mistake at work simply based on how I was born. It has to be done better than that. The tapes that came out a few years ago about the NYPD supervisor ordering to stop and frisk black and Hispanic young males - seriously? So every Black and Hispanic teen in the Bronx carries a gun?
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:13 AM
 
Location: NYC
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Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
And why is profiling actually a problem? The purpose of profiling is to narrow the search for a perpetrator of a particular crime down to the type of people who are most likely to have commited that crime. That would be people with a previous criminal record. What should police be doing instead of profiling - should they be searching for possible serious criminals among nuns? If the profiled person turns out not to be involved in anything criminal, and the police just let them go after checking them out, what is the big deal?


I know someone who, in the 1970s, was detained and questioned for a couple of hours on two occasions, at two different borders in Europe, because she had a tremendous facial similarity with some German terrorist woman. The second time it happened, she actually knew what the issue was (because of the previous experience), and asked right away to simply be fingerprinted. I already described an occasion when I was taking photos inside the hospital where I trained, for sentimental reasons (as I was leaving the place), and was questioned by hospital security because I was wandering around one of the hospital pharmacies with a camera at night. But then they checked my ID badge, I explained the situation, they called the department where I trained (and that department is very much active at night), and everything was straightened out in 30 min. If you look the way certain criminals look, or do something that a criminal might do, of course police will be interested in you. Police and security people are just doing their job, but if you are NOT an actual criminal, what is the reason to worry about getting profiled?
Even if the police are told not to profile but they still do because it's human nature. Everyone does, men look for certain types of women and vice versa. Criminals statistically fit a certain profile depending on the type of crime. It's identity politics plain and simple.

You can't change police profiling until the statistics themselves change. Liberals thinks the problem to crime is directly related to education and poverty but I disagree because there are well to do folks that commits white collar crime at a different level and scale. The common denominator is greed.
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:41 AM
 
8,306 posts, read 4,329,707 times
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Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
The hospital security did their job as they were supposed to. You were on private property. Had they not handled the situation correctly, you would have not been pleased. Now imagine if you were in the street and you got profiled and its just your luck the officers profiling you had a bad day. We’ve all made mistakes at work. I can’t afford for somebody to make a mistake at work simply based on how I was born. It has to be done better than that. The tapes that came out a few years ago about the NYPD supervisor ordering to stop and frisk black and Hispanic young males - seriously? So every Black and Hispanic teen in the Bronx carries a gun?

What is the difference between being questioned by security/police on private property vs. on the street? None at all. Profiling is not a "mistake" - not any more than betting on a certain possible outcome is a mistake. It is understood by any normal person that the result of profiling is always probabilistic - there is a much higher statistical chance that a member of group A is a criminal than a member of group B (if more than 90% of criminals are known to come from group A), but obviously more people from group A are still law-abiding than criminal.


Btw, I have been questioned on/off for 29 years before being given citizenship of the US, because of how I was born - I do not see anything unusual about that, and I entirely see why. I was fingerprinted about 4 or 5 times by the immigration authorities, and additionally about 10 times when I applied for various work contracts in government hospitals (btw, I got the contract every time) - I do not see amything unusual about that, and I entirely see why. I come from the same place and ethnicity from which a number of communists and perpetrators of crimes against humanity came - I personally am none of them, but am of the same ethnicity, and the reasons for suspicion by the US were totally obvious to me, as it should also be obvious to you why NYPD is suspicious of Black and Hispanic young males - seriously. It obviously does not mean that every Black and Hispanic young male in the Bronx carries a gun - but I am pretty sure (and you will have to agree with me if you are truthful) that more than 90% of people in the Bronx who carry unauthorized guns are Black and Hispanic young males. Who else would actually be carrying?? Police/security/immigration authorities search for law-breakers among the populations whose members usually break law - but it obviously does not mean that every member of that population is a law-breaker. Stopping and frisking does not mean an arrest. Everybody who flies on a commercial plane is stopped and scanned (and sometimes frisked and searched - I was just recently searched in detail because of a dry shampoo in the carry-on luggage that apparently triggered suspicion for something), even though only one out of several hundred million (or maybe billion) flyers might be a terrorist - should I complain about that? Obviously not - I am far happier to be searched than I would be if I boarded a plane with someone who is carrying a bomb. Likewise, I think anybody with a functioning brain should be happier to put up with stop-and-frisk than to put up with full-on gang warfare in his neighborhood.

Last edited by elnrgby; 10-04-2019 at 07:55 AM..
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:31 AM
 
1,533 posts, read 876,403 times
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Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
For example, Manhattan has peddler enforcement units that address illegal vendors, a "broken windows" issue.
.
Ah yes, I'm well acquainted with those guys. They robbed me of a long weekend when I was 16 and ignorant of the nuanced legal complexities of who is and isn't permitted to watch a peddler's goods in front of the public library while the licensed peddler dashes across the street to use the men's room in Roy Roger's.
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Old 10-04-2019, 09:58 AM
 
4,587 posts, read 2,584,869 times
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Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
The hospital security did their job as they were supposed to. You were on private property. Had they not handled the situation correctly, you would have not been pleased. Now imagine if you were in the street and you got profiled and its just your luck the officers profiling you had a bad day. We’ve all made mistakes at work. I can’t afford for somebody to make a mistake at work simply based on how I was born. It has to be done better than that. The tapes that came out a few years ago about the NYPD supervisor ordering to stop and frisk black and Hispanic young males - seriously? So every Black and Hispanic teen in the Bronx carries a gun?
If white teens and white males were equally stopped they might have found even more cocaine, opiods, and marijuana on them as well as firearms. But we won't know that because they didn't get stopped. For brown males the searching of them and finding drugs became a justification to search them. I would have agreed with supporters of the stop and frisk argument if as an adult in my forties, with a home, family, six figure job, sweater vest, tie, slacks didn't get treated like a criminal several times by NYPD.
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