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Old 10-07-2019, 06:00 AM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
Are you talking about sec 8? Sec 8 Landlords actually charge market rate, but the Sec 8 tenant is getting most of rent paid for. Tenant still has to pay their share. Landlord should have enough money to pay for maintenance. Unless tenant does not pay his share.
I am not talking about section 8, as the LL stil gets paid market rate, and therefore should be able to afford market rate building upkeep services.
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
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Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
Sure they do. Most of them do not pay market rate for maintenance, certainly not in NYCHA or lottery apartments. That's part of the reason why those buildings are poorly maintained, the residents do not care about the property they live in. Just like the taxpayer subsidizes the rents, they also subsidize all of the maintenance and bills (in the case of NYCHA). If you **** in an NYCHA elevator, you are not responsible for cleaning it up, the taxpayer is, unlike in a condo development where you'd be financially responsible yourself.
Private properties do not have to wait for some government official to allocate funds to fix their building, they just spend their own money to take care of their property. That's why government housing will always be crap no matter what economic system or what country. As far as plumbing/rehab/etc it costs the government about triple what you'd normally pay for the service, because the government has to abide by all kinds of oversight, rules, and regulations that a private citizen doesn't have to (following certain contracting procedures, auditing, insurance, prevailing wages, etc.)

This is false. Plumbers do not charge market rate for repairs, that is illegal in New York City. New York City bans its agencies from paying less than $106.20 per hour in wages & benefits to plumbers that are working as contractors. This is way higher than market rate. This is the law in New York, and companies will face steep fines or even criminal charges if they try to offer these services to the city for cheaper. I can assure you, market rates for plumbing services, excluding materials, is nowhere near $106 per hour...
The residents cannot be held responsible for anything that happens inside the walls. Maintenance of a building's life systems account for the most costly when it comes to maintenance. Many buildings' life systems are failing in subsidized developments (mechanical, electrical, plumbing).
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:17 AM
 
1,983 posts, read 726,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
Quite simple. Because while the occupants pay a subsidized rate to live there, they do not pay a subsidized rate for services rendered.

Does the plumber charge a subsidized rate for repairs? Do the energy companies charge subsidized rates for NYCHA, Mitchell-Lama, and lottery apartments? No, they charge market rate.

Furthermore, the scale of the developments are not considered with cost of ongoing maintenance. It makes no sense to have entire high-rise buildings of people who are essentially paying at a discount to occupy, but must pay market rate for services. Smaller-scale buildings can be easier maintained. For example, any building over 6 stories in NYC must file a periodic facade inspection report or face penalties. Filing the report involves hiring an architect and thats just the beginning of it.

In NYC, subsidized housing is always playing a game of catch-up when it comes to maintenance because of this.

I just read an article today that stated NYCHA needs $3B to upgrade the life systems for every development.

Clearly this is not working.

The most serious problems in the projects are not related to architecture. The projects in the Western Addition part of San Francisco are all 3-story high 1950s bright seaside resort and surf motel architecture - I don't know if the plumbing is better maintained, but the crime/ nuisances/ lack of interest for getting out of poverty/welfare are surely the same issue as in tower-in-the-park architecture of NYCHA, and only the heavy SFPD presence keeps the assault and murder rate somewhat lower. The streets surrounding these San Francisco projects are intensely revitalized, with many new stores and restaurants, and mostly old wooden Victorian and post-Victorian residential buildings with lots of young professionals including young families. But last time I passed through SF, I saw, in one of these revitalized streets around Western Addition projects, a guy from the projects peeing on the door handle and all over the driver's side of a BMW parked at the curb...



Again, problems in the projects are not a function of any particular architecture, but of the kind of people that live in the projects.

Last edited by elnrgby; 10-07-2019 at 08:29 AM..
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
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Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
The most serious problems in the projects are not related to architecture. The projects in the Western Addition part of San Francisco are all 3-story high 1950s bright seaside resort and surf motel architecture - I don't know if the plumbing is better maintained, but the crime/ nuisances/ lack of interest for getting out of poverty/welfare are surely the same issue as in tower-in-the-park architecture of NYCHA, and only the heavy SFPD presence keeps the assault and murder rate somewhat lower. The streets surrounding these San Francisco projects are intensely revitalized, with many new stores and restaurants, and mostly old wooden Victorian and post-Victorian residential buildings with lots of young professiinals including young families. But last time I passed through SF, I saw, in one of these revitalized streets around Western Addition projects, a guy from the projects peeing on the door handle and all over the driver's side of a BMW parked at the curb...



Again, problems in the projects are not a function of any particular architecture, but of the kind of people that live in the projects.
QOL of life issues have nothing to do with maintaining a building's life system and having sufficient funds to do so.
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
QOL of life issues have nothing to do with maintaining a building's life system and having sufficient funds to do so.

What is QOL of life? Quality of life of life? Life systems of buildings are a part of QOL. There is only so much taxpayer money to maintain the projects. If you have to house 800,000 people in the NYCHA (including 600,000 registered and 200,000 unregistered tenants), there won't be enough money to maintain everything. The problem with NYCHA plumbing maintenance is not the style/height of the buildings, but the mindboggling size of welfare-dependent population in NYC. The size of funds that would be required to properly maintain free housing for that number of people is larger than what even a city of 8.4 million can provide. If 10% of NYC population lives in free housing, and you want that housing to meet the same standards as market housing, then you would have to tax the rest of New Yorkers at the rate of 10% just to collect enough funds to support the welfare housing, not even including the tax for normal municipal services (for which city taxes are actually meant).
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
20,414 posts, read 35,393,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
What is QOL of life? Quality of life of life? Life systems of buildings are a part of QOL. There is only so much taxpayer money to maintain the projects. If you have to house 800,000 people in the NYCHA (including 600,000 registered and 200,000 unregistered tenants), there won't be enough money to maintain everything. The problem with NYCHA plumbing maintenance is not the style/height of the buildings, but the mindboggling size of welfare-dependent population in NYC. The size of funds that would be required to properly maintain free housing for that number of people is larger than what even a city of 8.4 million can provide. If 10% of NYC population lives in free housing, and you want that housing to meet the same standards as market housing, then you would have to tax the rest of New Yorkers at the rate of 10% just to collect enough funds to support the welfare housing, not even including the tax for normal municipal sedvices (for which city taxes are actually meant).
I will make as simple for you as I can.

The point I am making is that subsidized housing (and I am only referring to NYCHA and Mitchell-Lama, not Section 8 because the LL receives the difference form the govt, therefore they are getting market rate rent) is a failure because the revenue from them is not enough to maintain the buildings' life systems.

Life systems = plumbing, sprinkler, standpipe, mechanical, fire alarm, etc.

If NYCHA was only 1 building in NYC the result would be the same. There would be not enough money to maintain the life systems in that 1 building. Quality of life issues = loud noise, dirty hallways, etc. QOL is a completely separate issue from what I am talking about.
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:21 AM
 
1,983 posts, read 726,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
I will make as simple for you as I can.

The point I am making is that subsidized housing (and I am only referring to NYCHA and Mitchell-Lama, not Section 8 because the LL receives the difference form the govt, therefore they are getting market rate rent) is a failure because the revenue from them is not enough to maintain the buildings' life systems.

Life systems = plumbing, sprinkler, standpipe, mechanical, fire alarm, etc.

If NYCHA was only 1 building in NYC the result would be the same. There would be not enough money to maintain the life systems in that 1 building. Quality of life issues = loud noise, dirty hallways, etc. QOL is a completely separate issue from what I am talking about.

Okay, I thought you were somehow relating the bad quality of life in projects to bad quality of plumbing, as a result of wrong (ie, highrise) type of architecture where it is somehow intrinsically impossible to maintain plumbing.


Your other statement is absurd. The cost of plumbing maintenance for 1 building is much lower than the cost of plumbing maintenance for hundreds of buildings. Of course there would be enough money for maintenance of welfare buildings if they provided free housing for 0.1% of New Yorkers rather than for 10% New Yorkers - it is hundred times cheaper to take care of infrastructure for 8,000 people than for 800,000. That is how welfare system works in Scandinavia: the number of people on welfare is very small, so it is financially easier to give them a nice housing (although not even Scandinavians particularly enjoy funding welfare, and tend to cut it at any evidence of welfare abuse - see what Denmark is doing about immigrants after they have started to consume the majority of that country's welfare resources).


Revenue from NYCHA is insufficient to maintain NYCHA plumbing? Of course it is. NYCHA does not run from revenue collected from project tenants. These tenants live in the projects because they can't pay for their housing in the first place. Their housing, including plumbing maintenance, is designed to be paid for by someone else rather than the tenants.
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
20,414 posts, read 35,393,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnrgby View Post
Okay, I thought you were somehow relating the bad quality of life in projects to bad quality of plumbing, as a result of wrong (ie, highrise) type of architecture where it is somehow intrinsically impossible to maintain plumbing.


Your other statement is absurd. The cost of plumbing maintenance for 1 building is much lower than the cost of plumbing maintenance for hundreds of buildings. Of course there would be enough money for maintenance of welfare buildings if they provided free housing for 0.1% of New Yorkers rather than for 10% New Yorkers - it is hundred times cheaper to take care of infrastructure for 8,000 people than for 800,000. That is how welfare system works in Scandinavia: the number of people on welfare is very small, so it is financially easier to give them a nice housing (although not even Scandinavians particularly enjoy funding welfare, and tend to cut it at any evidence of welfare abuse - see what Denmark is doing about immigrants after they have started to consume the majority of that country's welfare resources).


Revenue from NYCHA is insufficient to maintain NYCHA plumbing? Of course it is. NYCHA does not run from revenue collected from project tenants. These tenants live in the projects because they can't pay for their housing in the first place. Their housing, including plumbing maintenance, is designed to be paid for by someone else rather than the tenants.
That's partially my point. I will provide an example for my other point.

An elevator needs to be replaced in a market-rate building. Another elevator needs to be replaced in a subsidized housing building. How much do you think the market-rate building gets charged for the installation? How much do you think the subsidized building gets charged?
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Old Today, 12:37 AM
 
17 posts, read 5,553 times
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Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
That's why government housing will always be crap no matter what economic system or what country.
Singapore seems to have a really good public housing system and it as a super high rate of home ownership as well.
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Old Today, 05:09 AM
 
Location: NY
4,575 posts, read 1,202,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manimgarbage View Post
NYCHA did warehouse the middle and lower class. The projects used to be white. Those that used to lived there used the system as a stepping stone, not a career choice. Whites moved out, blacks moved in, more whites moved out, more blacks moved in and we have what we have today. Welfare state and the destruction of the black community didn't help. Voting democrat was apart of the deal.
Opinion:
An old friend of mine was a former white resident of a housing project back in the 50's.
Told me so many things but the things stood out most was that you could not own a phone or
a car as that was considered a luxury. Meaning that if you can afford those items then you
shouldn't be living here. Which is why it boggles the mind to see mercedes and caddys
parked out in the lot. Folks flashing jewelry and gold teeth, sporting clothes more expensive
than the ones that non project residents wear...................Something definitely wrong with this picture.......
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