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Personally, I can't stand Wal-Mart. I went there once and never went back. For people (like me) - that don't like to shop at Wal-Mart:
Which is exactly how most New Yorkers felt which is why these "fringe" groups you speak of got so much solid support from the people of New York. When New Yorkers think Wal-Mart they think white trash. Those other stores you mentioned didn't have horrid little reputations before coming into the city.
Are you actually from NYC because I think it's funny that you think people in unions are a part of fringe groups in NYC. This isn't the South or some silly will to work state where the government sort of turns a blind eye to an employer's abuse.
I personally don't like unions, but your comments don't really work with NYC.
Pardon my typo... the word "other" in the first sentence should have been deleted.
I am not from NYC - read my screen name But, believe it or not, I am from one place where unions are actually more solidly entrenched in the culture than NYC -- Upstate NY. I am the son of a Teamster and an AFSCME steward, so I have a great deal of familiarity with unions and their very powerful presence in NY. I actually think unions are a good thing in principle, until they start manipulating the political process for their own benefit.
However, you missed my point. The point I was making is that this type of activity has brought together a confederation of groups all rallying against one company, when there are plenty of other companies that seem to get a pass. The fact that you bring up Wal-Mart's reputation vs. the others actually reinforces my point.
This Anti-Wal-Mart fever has brought very specific legislation from the city council against this one company, specifically designed to keep them out of NYC.
Each of the parties here is working for its own benefit. It is naive to think that this is some altruistic form of social justice at work. Please read the legislation and Google the phrase "New York Health Care Security Act" and read some of the opinions and blogs - on both sides.
The legislation was supported by the unions (who want to protect their turf), politicians (who want appear like they "fight for the little guy") and believe it or not, local grocery stores like Fairway, Key Food and Gristedes (who don't want the competition that Wal-Mart would bring). The "fringe" groups like hard-core socialists that have also joined the fray are actually the honest ones. At least they are fighting for a cause.
Do not blindly accept the seemingly "just" tone all of this anti-Wal-Mart rhetoric. This is manipulation by very powerful interest groups - more powerful than the almighty Wal-Mart itself - all getting what they want.
Footnote: Some states in the south are called "Right-to-Work" states. "Right to Work" simply means that employees are not forced by law to join the union at a unionized shop. It is not anti-worker or anti-union. It is pro-choice.
Well now, it has been popular to rant and rave against unions for some time, hasn't it? Yet nobody seems to mention the fact that Wal-Mart itself is violently anti-union. (That's one way to underpay your workers and minimize benefits, isn't it?) Perhaps this has something to do with opposition to the franchise, and particularly in a city with so many working people.
As to the relationship of Wal-Mart with culture in New York City...it wouldn't be anything but a negative.
Thanks for the great posts Upstater. The fact remains that if a wal-mart opened anywhere in NYC it would be mobbed by NYers of all kinds, just as the Targets are. There really is no difference between the big box retailers, except that Wal-Mart is not governed by Unions, and it is an extremely profitable business partly because of that fact. If Unions were welcoming of Wal-Mart the way that they are of other big box retailers, New Yorkers, fringe activists, and local retailers would have not been able to block them and Wal-mart would have blossomed the same way (or more) as Target. The reality is that NYC has a very large, very poor population that are very densely populated, and with access to significant amounts of government subsidies, like food stamps, WIC, welfare, etc...this is mecca for a place like Wal-Mart and they would thrive here. If you think the 2,500,000+ destitute/poor New Yorkers care about anything but saving money...you would be wrong...and the wal-marts in NYC would probably be the most profitable in the country. I am not anti-union, by the way, as they USED to serve a very good purpose. Today they are nothing more than the mob, and wield enormous power and political influence, moreso than they would ever have you think for fear of a backlash in the city. They are a monumental burden to the city, and prevent the healthy growth to move the city forward. Regarding Wal-Mart with culture in NYC...it would be no different than K-Mart and NYC, Target in NYC, Sears in NYC....and they are all here..wal-mart's only difference is that they are anti-union and are phenomenal at what they do.
NYC doesn't want Walmart because of what it represents. They sell Jesus action figures there for christs sake!! They are not exactly a liberal openminded institution.
the 2.5 million poor/destitute NYers would greatly disagree with you....Wal-mart is very welcome here. However the union do not welcome them, as a result, they are not here..and instead we get the "union friendly" Target. But there is no difference. And since when did being a liberal openminded institution have anything to do with conducting business in NYC, or having a place of business here?
the 2.5 million poor/destitute NYers would greatly disagree with you....Wal-mart is very welcome here. However the union do not welcome them, as a result, they are not here..and instead we get the "union friendly" Target. But there is no difference. And since when did being a liberal openminded institution have anything to do with conducting business in NYC, or having a place of business here?
How does Wal-Mart help the poor?
I don't see a problem with bringing Wal-Mart here but we don't need Wal-Mart.
I'm not getting into Walmart here because there is more than enough information on the internet about Walmart and it's belief system, treatment of employees, keeping women in the lower ranks, etc., etc., don't even get me started. What does Walmart possibly have to offer NYC that you cannot find in the thousands of 99 cent store, Cosco/BJ's, Target, K-Mart etc., that already exist in NYC.
WalMart has a flashpoint reputation that is a love or hate it proposition. Some have seen the decline of businesses in small towns where WalMart has opened as proof that the company destroys local business, while others contend that it's the best value. Neither is 100% true, especially since they operate with loss leaders to give the perception of value, when all products might not be as value priced as other retailers. So, they lose a few dollars on a special promotion of a DVD player, for example, but they make it up when you buy other items in the store that are not always the least expensive price in town. Other towns have been able to keep them out as well, with citizen opposition, but it's rare that it happens.
Target, by contrast, has an image as the more upscale of the big box discounters, and tends to carry more unique product lines developed for them that are of better quality than one would find at WalMart. They may charge a few pennies more, but store design, cleanliness, and shopping environment are factors that they consider and have actively marketed to their core consumer.
KMart lost its way, since it's neither the largest, the least expensive, nor the best shopping environment. They used to have a much larger presence, but Target has expanded to dominate that end of the market. And, KMart also does not have a reputation of destroying small town businesses as they have largely coexisted with other merchants.
Personally, of stores of this type - KMart, WalMart, and Target - WalMart is the least favorite since the stores do not carry what I want to buy and the shopping environment is just horrible. For similar goods, I definitely prefer to go to Costco over all three of these, since it meets my expectations and represents a good value to me.
There's a WalMart in White Plains, that does not appear to be mobbed by huddled masses yearning to be free, so I think it's a little bit of an exaggeration to boost WalMart as a champion of the economically disadvantaged, since the true savings may outweigh the transportation costs to get to the center to save. WalMart was never going to be able to open stores in all parts of the city, like grocery stores, so the costs have to be weighed in this assertion, since transportation to and from the WalMart may eat any savings, both in time and dollar cost to the consumer; moreover, the switch in business can cost the local grocer, hardware store, sewing store their trade in the face of perceived value marketed to consumers.
To the question of city culture, they are definitely not anything unique to New York, since you can find all three big box discounters in just about any town in the country. In that argument, it is the one who disrupts the least which represents the least damaging to that which is uniquely New York.
One of the biggest draws for wal-mart is all in one shopping. Yes there are a plethora of 99 cent stores, bodegas, and other smaller shops, but it is a one stop shop for everything one could need, far better maintained than many of the local options, much cleaner as well, and always moderately priced. That is a big draw and rare in NYC....Target is filling that void NOW, but had the Union blessed wal-mart instead of Target....it would be wal-mart filling that market, not Target. As for helping the poor, we don't need a wal-mart anymore than we need a Target, Sears, Starbucks on every corner, P.C Richard, or anyother large/succesful retailer. However NYers WANT them, and wal-mart's target market is the low-end consumer..and NYC has a huge market of poor that would flood into wal-mart. So we do not NEED wal-mart, but the convenience, the shopping experience, the breath of choices that currently do not exist, and the moderate prices provide the poor with a much better shopping option/experience. And again...this is now being met by Target for the most part.
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But, believe it or not, I am from one place where unions are actually more solidly entrenched in the culture than NYC -- Upstate NY. I am the son of a Teamster and an AFSCME steward, so I have a great deal of familiarity with unions and their very powerful presence in NY. I actually think unions are a good thing in principle, until they start manipulating the political process for their own benefit.
