Blatant economic segragation

[ogplife]

Originally Posted by mmckenna

As always, I think about the children. How would it benefit kids who are isolated to a "slum" neighborhood? They grow up with a comparable self-esteem. And those rich children? How would it benefit them? They grow up believing they are more deserving than everyone else.
Yes, this situation already exists in some areas, but at least it is not "forced".

I understand what you mean Mc, but on the flipside wouldn't this encourage parents not to stay in low income programs/project buildings for the sake of their children. I know its nothing cool about living in the projects, but it is still not a horrible deal to live in the projects in some parts of the city with all the amenities available in your neighborhood, particularly Manhattan (Do you think it is likely that many people in the projects in Harlem are moving anytime soon?). Wouldn't it force people to strive for better. If I fell on hard economic times I would work like hell to make my family's length of stay in the Bronx as short as possible. Wouldn't this plan also preserve the middle class to a certain extent (people seem to read over that part of the post) which everyone on the NYC forum complains about. I also did not really mean preserve housing for the rich. I said market rate apartments in Manhattan. I put "for the rich" in parenthesis because unless you make 3 or 4 hundred thousand dollars a year, market rate = for the rich.

[ogplife]

Originally Posted by DAS

The idea of this thread is an ingenius way to get everyone to really think. There have been so many threads where it has been suggested that rent stabilization should be banned, and the pj's taken out of Manhattan totally, the good areas of other boros. The responses here tell what that may really be like.

Thanks ogplife.

Thanks. I think its easier to complain than to think for some people though.

[DAS]

Originally Posted by ogplife

I understand what you mean Mc, but on the flipside wouldn't this encourage parents not to stay in low income programs/project buildings for the sake of their children. I know its nothing cool about living in the projects, but it is still not a horrible deal to live in the projects in some parts of the city with all the amenities available in your neighborhood, particularly Manhattan (Do you think it is likely that many people in the projects in Harlem are moving anytime soon?). Wouldn't it force people to strive for better. If I fell on hard economic times I would work like hell to make my family's length of stay in the Bronx as short as possible. Wouldn't this plan also preserve the middle class to a certain extent (people seem to read over that part of the post) which everyone on the NYC forum complains about. I also did not really mean preserve housing for the rich. I said market rate apartments in Manhattan. I put "for the rich" in parenthesis because unless you make 3 or 4 hundred thousand dollars a year, market rate = for the rich.

Plenty of people are striving for better and they are still stuck in the projects or some where else. So that person may work hard as they can and they may still have to stay in the Bronx. Let's face it, it is not easy to move from one economic class to higher class. I think anyone that reaches a certain age knows this and this is what makes the idea frightening.

[ogplife]

Originally Posted by DAS

Plenty of people are striving for better and they are still stuck in the projects or some where else. So that person may work hard as they can and they may still have to stay in the Bronx. Let's face it, it is not easy to move from one economic class to higher class. I think anyone that reaches a certain age knows this and this is what makes the idea frightening.

I agree Das I wasn't talking about that person (referring to the content/lazy person that can live in a nicer neighborhood if they truly wanted to). I guess it would be tough on those people you are describing, but hey somebody has to lose out in the plan, besides with the increased police protection it does not necessarily mean the Bronx would be a terrible place to live. Who knows with the smaller business unable to afford rental space in Manhattan the Bonx would likely be their prime target which may be an advantage for everyone (increase police protection would attract those businesses too). We talk about gentrification a lot from a resident point of view, but nobody talks about the small businesses. Everyone does not necessarily like the watered down chain food (golden crust etc). That could be an advantage to living there. I guess what I am saying is just because an area has low class residents financially does not mean the area has to be crap. They can have all of the same amenities as Manhattan, but on a smaller scale. Think Parkchester in comparison to a Manhattan condo. Parkchester has all the amenities that somone in a midtown condo has with incresed police protection (I know parkchester security aren't real cops, but you get the point), but on a smaller scale (like a smaller macy's or radio shack instead circuit city), but Parckchester is still a great place to live and if you want more contrary to yuppie belief areas outside of Manhattan are still a part of NYC and you have fairly easy access to more of you want. Do I think if the city was like this they would put any effort in that part of the city? Probably not, but I would be lying if I said a plan like this could work under no circumstances.

[DAS]

Originally Posted by ogplife

I agree Das I wasn't talking about that person (referring to the content/lazy person that can live in a nicer neighborhood if they truly wanted to). I guess it would be tough on those people you are describing, but hey somebody has to lose out in the plan, besides with the increased police protection it does not necessarily mean the Bronx would be a terrible place to live. Who knows with the smaller business unable to afford rental space in Manhattan the Bonx would likely be their prime target which may be an advantage for everyone (increase police protection would attract those businesses too). We talk about gentrification a lot from a resident point of view, but nobody talks about the small businesses.

Yes I totally agree. Living in Morningside Heights/Harlem and being an ex-Bronxite I have lived through the changes. Morrisania section of the Bronx was an area where a person could buy an affordable house, could open a business a live the American dream. Now all of that area that is wasteland (although it now starting to build up) was private homes and small businesses. That is why it couldn't be rehabilitated like Hunts Point and the West Bronx as easily, those sections have more apt buildings. Areas can be developed for the working middle class, and small business owners that could service these areas.

(referring to the content/lazy person that can live in a nicer neighborhood if they truly wanted to).

I would like to touch on this statement and add to it, I know that what I am about to state maybe misunderstood but it needs to be put out there so that everyone can understand resentment issues with gentrification. Some of the first few urban pioneers that came into Harlem were trust funders with drug issues. They could move into a clean safe building and pay all the rent for the entire period of their lease. When the lease period was over they could repeat the process. Landlords started to take notice and preferred this. (Who could blame them.) Usually these people had enough money to contain the drug issues to stay within the confines of their apts, so that social issues that usually arise when the poor have drug issues are not there. Now keep in mind that these early Urban Pioneers moved into clean safe buildings without drug and crime issues. So then it became very hard for a minority person to rent an available apt in these types of buildings.

There were always very few coops and condos available in Harlem. Brownstones were always for people of means, even when the city sold the $1 brownstones a person had to prove that they had the money available to renovate them. When new condos were developed they were only developed for the wealthy.

Some will argue that a business person is in it for profit, we all realize this and we are fine with it, because these condos bought in new services and more police protection. However, the City developed so much housing for the poor, some of these buildings could have been renovated for the working/middle class and apts could have been sold for a reasonable rate to these people. I would not like to see this trend continue.

It seems that the powers that be only think about the rich, the rich are serviced by the working/class, that working/middle class needs services and housing as well.

[DAS]

Originally Posted by feverish

Lets be fair here..the powers that be (today) have placed a profound emphasis on affordable housing...and that is the housing that is continuing to be built today..while the luxury market is waning. Furthermore, the idea that the powers that be only consider the rich is false, as the struggling areas have received far more investment in the past 5 years than they have in the past 15 years. 70% of the city housing stock is under rent control or rent stabilization..that is huge. If someone were only interested in the rich..that number would be 5%....there would be no affordable housing initiative, and most areas in Brooklyn and the Bronx would be wastelands today...and not seeing immense development (development for the middle class, not the rich in fact). Please refrain from the nonsense.

If your idea of developing housing for people that make less than $27K- $35K for a family of 4 is your idea of housing initiative for the working/middle class then that is nonsense. That is what most of the struggling areas have received in terms of new housing. Most families are making more than that but still cannot afford to purchase anything. If they can there are many others competing for the same thing. So my references are for these people. In the case of Harlem plenty of this housing that you are referring to was developed while others in the working/middle class stood on the side lines. Private developers in it for profits would want to develop to get as much money as they can. Since the city was aware of what was being developed and they themselves were developing they could have developed something for the working/middleclass.

Rent control and rent stabilization has been in effect before most of us were born and there is a shortage. Also it is no use to keep mentioning rent control when only those that have it now, will still have it, and there are not that many people left that have it.

I think that there are less than 5% rich people in NYC, however this just drives my point. Look at the average income for the zipcodes in Harlem. Was luxury housing necessary? The working/middle class is what makes this city run.

[feverish]

Yes the average household income in NYC is $43,000 (approximately) and that is the demographic that is being targeted for all the 2 and 3 family subsidized housing going up in NYC..and that has been going on for well over 20 years. Furthermore, the affordable housing requirements vary anywhere from $25,000 for a single person, to $60,000 for a family...so that demographic is being targeted as well. Your information is wrong. Harlem is included in this affordable housing initiative...you should sign up at nyc.gov to receive notifications of all the working/middle class housing rentals and ownership opportunities that are in fact in abundance in this city. In fact...if you are looking to buy a place right now...here are just some ownership opportunities that are available....it is up to individuals to take advantange instead of just spending their time blindly complaining: http://www.nyc.gov/html/hpd/download...ns_8-26-08.pdf http://www.nyc.gov/html/hpd/download...reet-Homes.pdf http://www.nyc.gov/html/hpd/downloads/pdf/Briarwood.pdf http://www.nyc.gov/html/hpd/download...ertisement.pdf There are similar rentals available....ignorance is not excuse..educate yourself about what is REALLY happening. Regarding rent control and rent stabilization....it is important to note this because it is 70%n of the rental market!!! If you believe we should disregard rent control or it somehow should not be a part of the discussion, you are merely cherry picking and dancing around the issues. If you want to honestly talk about affordability and housing in NYC..rent control and stabilization are front and center. And as for luxury housing in NYC..it is an issue of supply and demand. The only reason they build luxury housing is because they can make money off of it and there is a demand for it..and that's it..simple. Affordable housing is primarily a government initiative that is NOT a profit center, as a result, it is driven by need, not profit..and when profit is not a motive...those kinds of projects typically are not as popular. Nonetheless, Bloomie has pushed affordable housing to new heights and it is currently the ONLY game in town...despite the housing slowdown, builders are now flocking to affordable housing in the city because the city has made it economically viable for them. The future of housing over the next few years will be primarily affordable housing for the working and middle class.

[DAS]

Thank you for posting the info. I am not dancing around the issue of rent control it is just that the last people that could have rented an apt under rent control would have to have done so before around 1972. This was 36 years ago so the youngest of these people would now have to be around 56 or so. Most are much older than that, there are not that many still around, so it is not making up most of the housing stock.

I know the reasons for building luxury housing and I'm ok with it, and believe it or not so are most of the people in Harlem which I am speaking about. As I stated previously it has brought in many new stores and services. The problem is that most of this housing is in other areas, so if I am a Harlemite that really loves living in Harlem, which there are many, and we don't expect anyone outside to understand this, I may not want to move to these areas of the city. This is the whole idea of the thread, people being forced to live in other areas.

It is because of people like me that are complaining, that this housing for the working/middle class is being developed, this is good and the people in these areas hopefully won't fall victim to the same fate as Harlemites. 1,2 or 3 developments are not enough, so I think I will keep complaining here and there for a while.

I suggest you keep us all posted on the new developments as well.
I am ok, I own my apt in Morningside Heights, but I speak for all the complainers I talk to daily that don't post when these threads come up.