Remebering 9/11 (New York, York: health insurance, college, taxes)

[Redisca]

Originally Posted by Rudbeckia

Totally agree with you FutureCop.

Even if a ceremony is "manufactured", as Fred says, who cares?. The 9/11 ceremony holds much meaning for many people, and if you would deny people this just to make your commute faster, you are very selfish.

Cuts both ways. Getting home to their children and not having a heart attack on the train means a lot for many people, and denying them that just to provide others with a ceremony is very selfish.

Originally Posted by Rudbeckia

What if we did have ceremonies every year honoring the people who died in Pearl Harbor? That would not be a bad thing. I do not know the history regarding the amount of ceremonies held after Pearl Harbor, but I guarantee you people had them.

Why not hold ceremonies every year for all the people who died in crane accidents? Or for those murdered by gangs? Or for the victims of numerous cholera epidemics that took place throughout New York's history? Are you saying the emotions of someone whose loved one was murdered by a drug dealer are less important than those whose loved one was murdered by a Muslim terrorist? How arbitrary!

[Redisca]

Originally Posted by Jungle George

It just seems a bit off-center to hear someone complaining that all this "hoopla" is "useless" even though it may be helping thousands of people to heal the emotional scars they have from that day including relatives & friends of victims, police, firefighters, medical personnel, military personnel & others that unselfishly helped throughout the aftermath, as well as those who truly want to honor the dead!!

DOES it help to heal emotional scars? You know, that theory about how one should heal emotional scars by reliving a tragedy (and forcing others to do the same) over and over is highly debatable. Besides, I sure there are less drastic ways to address emotional scars.

Originally Posted by Jungle George

Calling these ceremonies something to "satisfy the egotism of the living" sounds a bit strange when reading your post because it seems kinda "egotistical" to me that you would rather deny these thousands of people these ceremonies based on the inconvenience of your commute 1 day out of 365 a year!! Could it be that if someone's human they have an ego???

Like "Flo" on the Progressive TV commercial says...."SURPRISE"!!!!

Why would I be surprised? It's merely another aspect of a funereal culture -- mandatory guilt for going about one's life, and the belief that artificially making life difficult somehow makes up for what the dead have suffered. OMG, how can she just go on with her life as if nothing happened??? When normal, decent people are properly wringing their hands, tearing out their hair and whaling like belugas? Naturally, the selfishness implicit in massive morning that screws up everyone's day is a moral one, while the selfishness implicit in the desire to get to one's family on time is immoral. Especially since one's loved ones can always be compensated for their troubles once they are dead. That's what funerals and memorials are for -- right? [Sarcasm alert]

[Redisca]

Originally Posted by Miles

When next my family gathers to mourn our lost loved ones, I'll try to remember that this is all about me not about the ones gone.

It's certainly a good thing to remember any time a family bickers over the acknowledgments that go on a tomb stone. And it's certainly a good thing to remember at the funeral of a loved one who was treated like crap when (s)he was alive. And it's certainly a good thing to remember when a funeral or a wake seems like the highlight of one's relationship with a "lost loved one".

Originally Posted by Miles

Hey, why don't we all wipe out funeral processions too as your car might have to wait at a stop light for a few minutes as the mourners try to make themselves feel good on the way to the burial ground.

Ah, please, let's not get hysterical. "Wipe out"? You make it sound as if I suggested to firebomb cemeteries. What's next -- accuse me of drowning little cute puppies in my spare time? But, for what it's worth, commute on 9/11 is prolonged not by "a few minutes", but by a few hours, and the people stuck in it are subjected to a heightened danger of a terrorist attack, accidents, heart attacks and exhaustion -- unnecessarily -- and though I am in a minority here, I really don't think another lacrimose memorial for them would make it all better. Extreme overcrowding and long commutes also make it difficult for medical help to get to those afflicted. If someone living in Lower Manhattan dies because an ambulance could not get to him due to massive street closures, how much of a consolation do you think it would be to his family that at least, hey, his death enabled someone to deal with their emotional scars and what not? If ordinary funeral processions wreaked such havoc on a major world city, I think it would really be worth considering some modifications to the rituals to make them less of a burden to the public.

[Moderate Guy]

Originally Posted by Redisca

It's certainly a good thing to remember any time a family bickers over the acknowledgments that go on a tomb stone. And it's certainly a good thing to remember at the funeral of a loved one who was treated like crap when (s)he was alive. And it's certainly a good thing to remember when a funeral or a wake seems like the highlight of one's relationship with a "lost loved one".



Ah, please, let's not get hysterical. "Wipe out"? You make it sound as if I suggested to firebomb cemeteries. What's next -- accuse me of drowning little cute puppies in my spare time? But, for what it's worth, commute on 9/11 is prolonged not by "a few minutes", but by a few hours, and the people stuck in it are subjected to a heightened danger of a terrorist attack, accidents, heart attacks and exhaustion -- unnecessarily -- and though I am in a minority here, I really don't think another lacrimose memorial for them would make it all better. Extreme overcrowding and long commutes also make it difficult for medical help to get to those afflicted. If someone living in Lower Manhattan dies because an ambulance could not get to him due to massive street closures, how much of a consolation do you think it would be to his family that at least, hey, his death enabled someone to deal with their emotional scars and what not? If ordinary funeral processions wreaked such havoc on a major world city, I think it would really be worth considering some modifications to the rituals to make them less of a burden to the public.

But thanks for airing your viewpoint. The board is open to all and sometimes we forget that there are one or two people have differing opinions.

Thanks again for giving us a wake up call.

[Jungle George]

Originally Posted by Redisca

DOES it help to heal emotional scars? You know, that theory about how one should heal emotional scars by reliving a tragedy (and forcing others to do the same) over and over is highly debatable. Besides, I sure there are less drastic ways to address emotional scars.



Why would I be surprised? It's merely another aspect of a funereal culture -- mandatory guilt for going about one's life, and the belief that artificially making life difficult somehow makes up for what the dead have suffered. OMG, how can she just go on with her life as if nothing happened??? When normal, decent people are properly wringing their hands, tearing out their hair and whaling like belugas? Naturally, the selfishness implicit in massive morning that screws up everyone's day is a moral one, while the selfishness implicit in the desire to get to one's family on time is immoral. Especially since one's loved ones can always be compensated for their troubles once they are dead. That's what funerals and memorials are for -- right? [Sarcasm alert]

LOLOL!!! Oh my!!! I'm thinking about high school science trying to remember where the universe revolves around....

[Futcha]

Originally Posted by Redisca

Cuts both ways. Getting home to their children and not having a heart attack on the train means a lot for many people, and denying them that just to provide others with a ceremony is very selfish.



Why not hold ceremonies every year for all the people who died in crane accidents? Or for those murdered by gangs? Or for the victims of numerous cholera epidemics that took place throughout New York's history? Are you saying the emotions of someone whose loved one was murdered by a drug dealer are less important than those whose loved one was murdered by a Muslim terrorist? How arbitrary!

There are ceremonies for them called funerals. But something to this magnitude needs a larger ceremony. Dying is a way of life, but this was probably the worst day in American history. 343 firefighters dead, 23 police officers dead, and 3,000 others dead. You can say 2001 was the most dangerous year in New York's history because over 3,000 people were murdered. It was mass murder.

[Rudbeckia]

Originally Posted by Redisca

Cuts both ways. Getting home to their children and not having a heart attack on the train means a lot for many people, and denying them that just to provide others with a ceremony is very selfish.



Why not hold ceremonies every year for all the people who died in crane accidents? Or for those murdered by gangs? Or for the victims of numerous cholera epidemics that took place throughout New York's history? Are you saying the emotions of someone whose loved one was murdered by a drug dealer are less important than those whose loved one was murdered by a Muslim terrorist? How arbitrary!

I am not saying this at all. Someone who was killed b/c of gang violence is equally as important as someone killed on 9/11.


Redisca-I can't believe you have managed to ruin this thread. If you would like to debate the importance of memorials, please start your own thread.

[Moderate Guy]

Originally Posted by Rudbeckia

I am not saying this at all. Someone who was killed b/c of gang violence is equally as important as someone killed on 9/11.


Redisca-I can't believe you have managed to ruin this thread. If you would like to debate the importance of memorials, please start your own thread.

Rudbeckia I do want to thank you so very much for starting the thread and giving so many of us an opportunity to express our grief and show outrage for the wounds that will never heal,

By no means has your thread been ruined for me.

Thanks again, Rudbeckia.

[Rudbeckia]

Originally Posted by Miles

Rudbeckia I do want to thank you so very much for starting the thread and giving so many of us an opportunity to express our grief and show outrage for the wounds that will never heal,

By no means has your thread been ruined for me.

Thanks again, Rudbeckia.

You are welcome

[Moderate Guy]

Originally Posted by Redisca

If my horrendous commute could resurrect your best friend's father, or anyone else who died, I would have no problem with it. But the annoying crap I have to put up with every year does not benefit those dead people in the least. I expected the knee-jerk reaction, but please step back and look at the situation critically -- there is a lot of hypocrisy here, and it does not just happen on 9/11. In general, memorials, endless ceremonies, ostentatious tomb stones, funereal art work, brass orchestras and other things of that nature -- none of it is really for the sake of the dead; those things are undertaken to satisfy the egotism of the living. The dead people have nothing to do with those events and accouterments -- NOTHING. They are merely a pretext for (some of) the living to make themselves feel all good and mushy on the inside. They are monuments to ourselves -- our generosity, artistic taste, and how good we are for "respecting the dead". Alas, the dead don't need us -- and you ought to think really well who is really paying respects to whom.

Ordinarily, I have no problem with this. But paralyzing a significant part of the city on a weekday so that a few feel-good speeches can be made -- that's just not fair. That is what ticks me off. I do respect the dead, but I wish the living would respect each other. Doing something in order to feel good about yourself does not justify subjecting millions of people to such a manufactured and totally useless inconvenience as well as spending loads of public money every year.

Thanks so much for sharing your perspectives. I would be remiss if I didn't remark that your sentiments are not in keeping with what I usually encounter, but that's okay. You're entitled to your viewpoints.

I was wondering if your dilemma and inconveniene at all the grief and tributes to those passed on could be solved by taking a personal day from the office next year. Thus you will not suffer the forementioned anguish and tribulation and will not have to deal with the traffic.

And if someday, you and others have some passionate pursuit that others may not share, and that may create some logistical issues around town, we can return the favor and stay home that day.

Just a thought.

Best wishes.