Why No Hispanic/Black Tension? (Cuba, Morris: buy, university, living in)

[SuperMario]

Originally Posted by TunaBoy

What do ricans and blacks have in common besides living amongst each other here in the states? And I know ricans have some african ancestry, but very little. Both ricans and mexicans have spanish and native ancestry, with mexico having more, but no african ancestry. They both speak spanish, listen to similar music, watch univision, eat rice and beans, and look similar in my opinion.

I disagree. In terms of racial make up the carribean hispanics from Cuba, Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico are basically identical. PR has alittle more spanish and DR/Cuba a little more African but generally these three countries are the same in makeup. That is why alot of people have trouble telling people from DR, PR and Cuba apart.

The same goes for Central American countries like Salvador, Mexico, Uruguay ...and to a certain extent South American countries, Ecuador, Peru....alot of these people just get thrown in with Mexicans. Because they are hard to tell apart. Most of these countries have the same makeups. I cannot tell a Mexican from an Ecuadorian/Salvadorean apart for example.

But nobody would confuse a Dominican for being Mexican, Or a Puerto Rican for being Ecuadorian or a Cuban for being Salvadorean. They're all latin countries but they share almost nothing besides language. Dominican, Puerto Rican and to a lesser extent Cuba culture are similar. They actually do listen to the same music...Merengue, Salsa, Bachata, Reggaeton. They eat the same exact foods....arroz con habichuela y pollo. They sometimes use the same slang.....Que lo Que, Que lo Que hay, Loco, Manito, cabr*n, Chula, Mami, Mierda, Diablo etc....all though this isnt entirely true....but Puerto Ricans use DR slang occasionally and vice versa. But you NEVER hear them say Guey, Chingada, Vieja, Que mas, Vato etc which is what Mexicans say. Mexicans listen to Vallenatos, Mariachi, Balladas and some Bachata....so it isnt the same music.

So Puerto Ricans and Blacks have more in common IMO. Puerto Ricans do not have "litte" African.....some barrios over there are entirely black. They have a significant amount, though not as much as DR and Cuba. But they have that in common with African Americans. Also PR and AA listen to hip-hop and are both heavily involved in the ghetto lifestyle. BTW, the above is meant for Nuyoricans and not Puerto Ricans from la isla. Puerto Ricans en la isla have little in common with AA. Also remember that Nuyoricans dont speak spanish, so they lose the only thing that bonded them with Mexicans.

If anything the only countries that are alike to PR, is DR and Cuba. Anything else is a stretch.

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by SuperMario

I strongly agree with both of you. Nothing in the world irks me more than people saying broad statements like "Dominicans are for the most part black" or something of that matter. I will not deny that I have african heritage but I would in no way be considered black. My mother's mom was as white as powder and had green eyes (her mom was from spain). My mother's brother is white and has blonde hair. My moms sisters are both white and have blue eyes. My mom is the darkest but she wouldnt be considered near black. Most of my father's family would be considered "Indio" and thats because of the excessive exposure to sun light in DR. If they were to live here they would be a shade or too lighter. In the winter, I could pass off for being white. In the summer I can pass for tan or "light Indio". But it angers me when people assume Dominicans are generally black.

I was in the Heights today and most of the Dominicans I saw where either Indio claro or blanco. That's light Indian and white for non-spanish speakers. I did not see one fully black Dominican. And I barely see them. Now in DR alot of places have large black populations but what people dont realize is that alot of blacks seen on TV in poor barrios in DR are actually Haitians. There are over 1 million Haitians in DR. They settle in these poor barrios and people just assume that they're black Dominicans.

The "Cibao" area of DR that includes places like San Fransisco De Macoris, Santiago, Jarabacoa, Tenares etc the majority of the population is white. Now you have areas like Santo Domingo, San Pedro etc that most Dominicans are black. What I am trying to say is that most Dominicans are mixed. Some have stronger African features and other stronger Spanish ones. But you people seem to love the one-drop rule. But you cannot generalize the country by just saying black. Even mixes have different shades. You can have a light mix (wouldnt be white maybe tanish) or a dark mix (not black but dark tanish or "indio") it doesn't change the fact that very few of the population is black. In fact there are more fully white Dominicans in DR than there are fully black. People just love throwing the mixed population in with black when they have just as much white. Why the focus on black? Why not throw them with white? African features sure do not make you black.

Anyways most Dominicans in the US are in the lighter range. If I recall in DR the population voted as follows:

73 % Mixed
16% White
11% Black

Seems pretty clear.

So Sunils dad I may come from a 85% black country but that same country is also a 89% white country.

"You people." That's funny.

Anyway. I understand everything you are saying, even if I don't agree. I know the history of the Caribbean just as you do, even if my perspective is "colored" by being in America. You can speak about how mixed you are, and I will tell you that my family is similar. You have to admit, however, that the Dominican cultural outlook is somewhat influenced both by white supremacist notions and by antihaitianismo. Dominicans are raised to believe that even if they know they are of African heritage, they are supposed to emphasize their mixed heritage to the point where they will identify as "indio." Calling yourself anything other than black is the way to go there. But just how many actual Tainos live in the Dominican Republic? Yes, many people are mixed with African and European and indio, but there are no true indios there now. Your concept of what is black most likely means that only people who look like Jose Francisco Pena Gomez are black, and even his children have "improved" to the point where they can call themselves indio. When I go to the Dominican Republic or to Dominican neighborhoods in the US, I see lots of people who look like my relatives, and I see the vast majority of these mixed people as being black like me. I know many people in the Cibao are light, but white, as in purely European? I don't think so........You will never get me to agree that there are more purely white people in the Dominican than purely black. I do agree that there are more mixed people there than anything else, but that that mix is strongly African all around. Why focus on black? Because in America, and in Cuba, where I come from (ancestrally), you are not a white man or woman unless you are actually white, as in no discernable nonwhite ancestry. You can't call someone who looks like me (or Barack Obama) white just because we are part white.

I am African, French, Spanish, Chinese and possibly Indian, and I am often mistaken for Dominican, even by Dominicans. And as you have said that most dark blacks in the Dominican Republic are actually Haitian, is it true that Johnny Ventura, most Dominicans in the Major Leagues and Pena Gomez (ok, don't answer that!) are actually Haitian? Or do Dominicans simply not want to acknowledge how African their country really is because they have been taught to love their Spanish, French, English, Italian, Lebanese, Chinese and Indian heritage but hate their African background?

[SuperMario]

Originally Posted by TunaBoy

Aside from birthing hiphop and living amongst each other, theres not much else. I think u speak mainly of puerto rican AMERICANS. Yes puerto rico has black areas, but im speaking about the overall population. Look at the race relations in puerto rico, in most cases the whites dislike the blacks and look down on them. And I never said mexican and rican music is the same, I said they LISTEN to some of the same music and can relate to some of the same music due to the common language. Same goes for watching tv and telenovelas. I doubt many african americans watch univision and listen to marc anthony. As far as looks, it really depends on the individual and what they view as the typical mexican or puerto rican look. I think some mexicans can pass as puerto rican, and vice versa. Oscar delahoya, eva longoria, jlo, fat joe, jon leguizamo, benicio deltoro etc.

Basically

Nuyoricans have alot in common with African Americans.

Puerto Ricans have more in common with Mexicans.

Is this what you mean?

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by SuperMario

I disagree. In terms of racial make up the carribean hispanics from Cuba, Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico are basically identical. PR has alittle more spanish and DR/Cuba a little more African but generally these three countries are the same in makeup. That is why alot fo people have trouble telling people from DR, PR and Cuba apart.

The same goes for Central American countries like Salvador, Mexico, Uruguay ...and to a certain extent South American countries, Ecuador, Peru....alot of these people just get thrown in with Mexicans. Because they are hard to tell apart. Most of these countries have the same makeups. I cannot tell a Mexican from an Ecuadorian/Salvadorean apart for example.

But nobody would confuse a Dominican for being Mexican, Or a Puerto Rican for being Ecuadorian or a Cuban for being Salvadorean. They're all latin countries but they share almost nothing besides language. Dominican, Puerto Rican and to a lesser extent Cuba culture are similar in culture. They actually do listen to the same music...Merengue, Salsa, Bachata, Reggaeton. They eat the same exact foods....arroz con habichuela y pollo. They sometimes use the same slang.....Que lo Que, Que lo Que hay, Loco, Manito, ******, Chula, Mami, Mierda, Diablo etc....all though this isnt entirely true....but Puerto Ricans use DR slang occasionally and vice versa. But you NEVER hear them say Guey, Chingada, Vieja, Que mas, Vato etc which is what Mexicans say. Mexicans listen to Vallenatos, Mariachi, Balladas and soem Bachata....so it isnt the same music.

So Puerto Ricans and Blacks have more in common IMO. Puerto Ricans do not have "litte" African.....some barrios over there are entirely black. They have a significant amount, though not as much as DR and Cuba. But they have that in common with African Americans. Also PR and AA listen to hip-hop and are both heavily involved in the ghetto lifestyle. BTW, the above is meant for Nuyoricans and not Puerto Ricans from la isla. Puerto Ricans en la isla have little in common with AA. Also remember that Nuyoricans dont speak spanish, so they lose the only thing that bonded them with Mexicans.

If anything the only countries that are alike to PR, is DR and Cuba. Anything else is a stretch.

Dude, Uruguay is not in Central America, and in fact has a proportionally larger black population than El Salvador...but you are right on most of what you are saying here. And yes, I was speaking more of the connections between American PRs and African Americans than I was the Puerto Ricans from the island and Americans of any type......

[NooYowkur81]

Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad

"You people." That's funny.

Anyway. I understand everything you are saying, even if I don't agree. I know the history of the Caribbean just as you do, even if my perspective is "colored" by being in America. You can speak about how mixed you are, and I will tell you that my family is similar. You have to admit, however, that the Dominican cultural outlook is somewhat influenced both by white supremacist notions and by antihaitianismo. Dominicans are raised to believe that even if they know they are of African heritage, they are supposed to emphasize their mixed heritage to the point where they will identify as "indio." Calling yourself anything other than black is the way to go there. But just how many actual Tainos live in the Dominican Republic? Yes, many people are mixed with African and European and indio, but there are no true indios there now. Your concept of what is black most likely means that only people who look like Jose Francisco Pena Gomez are black, and even his children have "improved" to the point where they can call themselves indio. When I go to the Dominican Republic or to Dominican neighborhoods in the US, I see lots of people who look like my relatives, and I see the vast majority of these mixed people as being black like me. I know many people in the Cibao are light, but white, as in purely European? I don't think so........You will never get me to agree that there are more purely white people in the Dominican than purely black. I do agree that there are more mixed people there than anything else, but that that mix is strongly African all around. Why focus on black? Because in America, and in Cuba, where I come from (ancestrally), you are not a white man or woman unless you are actually white, as in no discernable nonwhite ancestry. You can't call someone who looks like me (or Barack Obama) white just because we are part white.

I am African, French, Spanish, Chinese and possibly Indian, and I am often mistaken for Dominican, even by Dominicans. And as you have said that most dark blacks in the Dominican Republic are actually Haitian, is it true that Johnny Ventura, most Dominicans in the Major Leagues and Pena Gomez (ok, don't answer that!) are actually Haitian? Or do Dominicans simply not want to acknowledge how African their country really is because they have been taught to love their Spanish, French, English, Italian, Lebanese, Chinese and Indian heritage but hate their African background?

I consider myself basically mixed. Black and White. But in DR a lot of people would look at me weird if I said that out loud. Lol. In DR I'd probably be tanned year round due to the good weather, so I'd be considered "Indio." Indio basically is the accepted terminology to describe someone who is mixed but people never like to specify their Black Heritage. Its totally different out there.

[TunaBoy]

Originally Posted by SuperMario

I disagree. In terms of racial make up the carribean hispanics from Cuba, Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico are basically identical. PR has alittle more spanish and DR/Cuba a little more African but generally these three countries are the same in makeup. That is why alot of people have trouble telling people from DR, PR and Cuba apart.

The same goes for Central American countries like Salvador, Mexico, Uruguay ...and to a certain extent South American countries, Ecuador, Peru....alot of these people just get thrown in with Mexicans. Because they are hard to tell apart. Most of these countries have the same makeups. I cannot tell a Mexican from an Ecuadorian/Salvadorean apart for example.

But nobody would confuse a Dominican for being Mexican, Or a Puerto Rican for being Ecuadorian or a Cuban for being Salvadorean. They're all latin countries but they share almost nothing besides language. Dominican, Puerto Rican and to a lesser extent Cuba culture are similar. They actually do listen to the same music...Merengue, Salsa, Bachata, Reggaeton. They eat the same exact foods....arroz con habichuela y pollo. They sometimes use the same slang.....Que lo Que, Que lo Que hay, Loco, Manito, cabr*n, Chula, Mami, Mierda, Diablo etc....all though this isnt entirely true....but Puerto Ricans use DR slang occasionally and vice versa. But you NEVER hear them say Guey, Chingada, Vieja, Que mas, Vato etc which is what Mexicans say. Mexicans listen to Vallenatos, Mariachi, Balladas and some Bachata....so it isnt the same music.

So Puerto Ricans and Blacks have more in common IMO. Puerto Ricans do not have "litte" African.....some barrios over there are entirely black. They have a significant amount, though not as much as DR and Cuba. But they have that in common with African Americans. Also PR and AA listen to hip-hop and are both heavily involved in the ghetto lifestyle. BTW, the above is meant for Nuyoricans and not Puerto Ricans from la isla. Puerto Ricans en la isla have little in common with AA. Also remember that Nuyoricans dont speak spanish, so they lose the only thing that bonded them with Mexicans.

If anything the only countries that are alike to PR, is DR and Cuba. Anything else is a stretch.

I agree that those carribean countries have african ancestry, but why disregard the spanish ancestry which almost all latin countries share, including mexico and pr. If you go to california or mexico city, many mexicans look straight spanish with more european features. So yes, they will blend in if they visit puerto rico and vice versa. Ive seen alot of dominicans that look pure spanish, light skinned that could pass for mexican. It could be that you only see mexicans from certain parts of mexico, the indigenous part. If you go to mexico city, alot of people have blonde hair and blue eyes. My friend that lives here in nyc has visited LA and he even said nyc doesnt have the "white-looking mexicans."

As far as music, almost all latin countries listen to salsa, merengue, reggaeton...the mariachi music is more traditonal and regional. Slang is gonna be different wherever you go period, even within the same country. I just came back from ecuador and theres all different kinds of people...indegenous, mestizos, european, black...i was actually surprised to see so many blacks and mullatos there cause ecuador isnt really near the carribean.

Originally Posted by SuperMario

Basically

Nuyoricans have alot in common with African Americans.

Puerto Ricans have more in common with Mexicans.

Is this what you mean?

Yup

[crisp444]

Originally Posted by gv0928

Yeah, crips44 was just doing his best to sound ignorant.

My Dominican side is white as can be. *shrug*

Excuse me? I stated that the stereotypical Dominican is mulato and "looks black" in the eyes of non-black people. I am Latin and white as can be so it's not like I'm unaware that 16% of Dominicans are white and that many other have more white than black blood. One of my friends from where I grew up in Miami is 100% Dominican and he could pass for being Irish.

[RUBIES77]

Originally Posted by King0fthehill

Dominicans and to a lesser extent Ricans ARE Black.

And for the other races...they don't (for the most part) share turf with the Blacks.

The last time I checked into Puerto Rican history, they have some African roots, but more Dutch, French, and other European countries, including Spain. The VERY LARGE MAJORITY, look White. The Puerto Ricans that came to this country, meaning New York, in the early 30s, 40s have nothing in common with Black culture, except the roots of music. Most of them have assimilated with the White culture. However, the ones that did not worked themselves up the ladder of success, and the ones that came much later and have remained poor, have assimilated with the Blacks, in ghettoes, simply because they have not worked themselves out of poverty, and not because there are any similarities in their cultures.

[crisp444]

Originally Posted by crisp444

Excuse me? I stated that the stereotypical Dominican is mulato and "looks black" in the eyes of non-black people. I am Latin and white as can be so it's not like I'm unaware that 16% of Dominicans are white and that many other have more white than black blood. One of my friends from where I grew up in Miami is 100% Dominican and he could pass for being Irish.

I must say that I think you have a very realistic view on this subject, Nooyowkur81. The term "indio" is horribly misused by Dominicans; many of them (not all of them, so whoever wants to attack me should stop and reread this sentence before doing so) have such an ingrained hatred towards blacks that they cannot even describe themselves and their families with an accurate racial term; "indio" is a cop-out for "mulato" and sometimes even for "negro." When you're Latin American and used to seeing racially mixed people, you don't look to skin color for guidance, you look to facial structure (nose, lips, forehead, etc.) and hair (kinky, curly, straight, etc.) for a better indication of one's race or racial admixture. I see "light skinned" Dominicans all the time that have CLEARLY African features; it would be very inaccurate to describe them as "indio claro" or whatever Mario would call them.

And no, Mario, the demographics of Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Dominican Republic are quite different:

Cuba
White - 37%
Black - 11%
Asian - 1%
Mulato - 51%

Puerto Rico*
White - 80.5%
Black - 8%
Asian - 0.2%
Amerindian - 0.4%
"Mixed" - 9.9%

Dominican Republic
White - 16%
Black - 11%
"Mixed" - 73%

*The PR numbers are likely skewed due to self-reporting; I have read that it is estimated that up to half of the people who report "white" have mixed ancestry; therefore, the "mixed" number should probably be about half of the population and the "white" number should be a little less than half.

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by RUBIES77

The last time I checked into Puerto Rican history, they have some African roots, but more Dutch, French, and other European countries, including Spain. The VERY LARGE MAJORITY, look White. The Puerto Ricans that came to this country, meaning New York, in the early 30s, 40s have nothing in common with Black culture, except the roots of music. Most of them have assimilated with the White culture. However, the ones that did not worked themselves up the ladder of success, and the ones that came much later and have remained poor, have assimilated with the Blacks, in ghettoes, simply because they have not worked themselves out of poverty, and not because there are any similarities in their cultures.

I have land in Puerto Rico and go there a few times a year. There are a lot of people there who look European, but to say that even a majority of them look white is way off. Most look, and are, mixed. I also find your comment about the "ghetto" Puerto Ricans quite fascinating...................