Cops shoot and Kill 2 Brothers (community college, law, gangs)

[Gardier]

Originally Posted by DesiArnez6

WOW, Amazing that so many are bashing the mother here. Geez, her kids are just killed, and it seems there is almost NO compassion.

Can we not look at this case objectively.

First of all, I see nothing in ANY news articles to justify earlier posts that the mom is some "drug addict" or that some "baby daddy" is involved, or that her sons are "thugs" and dangerous, wreckless, etc.

Look at the facts, as Mayor Bloomberg says we don't yet know ALL that happened here.

Perhaps someone should watch the 1957 Movie "12 Angry Men" Before passing Judgment
12 Angry Men (1957)
12 Angry Men - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Think, so far the Cops stated, that Dwayne David and Kayshawn Forde were at the scene, when David opened fire and charged at the cops after a nightclub brawl

Evidence has already conflicted with NYPD statements as both brothers were shot in the BACK.
If I were a Juror, I would have an OBLIGATION to question the validity of the Cop's statements seeing as that part of the testimony had already been shown to be false.

IF the mother had filed statements that were FALSE, would not ALL of any related testimony then be considered QUESTIONABLE. Why yes indeed, she would now be a questionable witness.

So I would ADD that since the NYPD were proven false, that the kids were running away, NOT charging at them forward, I MUST now question whether or not those two young men were the ACTUAL Shooters, or NOT. I Have NOT seen ANY other Independent witnesses verifying if indeed these two young men were the shooters. NOR did forensic evidence, gun powder residue etc. confirm such.

The Right to Bear Arms is CONSTITUTIONALLY Protected, and there was NO statement so far that the guns in possession were illegally carried. As they were both Adults, they have every RIGHT to goto the "Club". Going to a "Club" in itself is NOT illegal and does NOT justify murder by the NYPD.

Anyone who has been at a shooting, (which I have, they happen in this neighborhood far too often), knows that people RUN. Why? To not get shot. People also know that in these neighborhoods, MANY carry guns. At these "clubs" there are hard working people who Party hard, and sometimes there are "thugs" mixed in. It is VERY easy in these settings for the two to get mixed up in the same setting. If I were shot in my neighborhood, would it be deserved?

I almost got shot in front of a club on the way back home from the local supermarket a few years back. I literally had to run as fast as I could with my shopping cart hoping not to spill the groceries. Turns out two rival gangs were having a feud over a shooting the previous week. IT was evening, and still daylight. Yet, many here seem to imply that had I been legally armed with a registered gun and permit, that somehow the NYPD would be justified to shoot me in the back for "fleeing the scene" Even if id NEVER been INSIDE the Club, never shot the gun, and was only getting groceries. And that my mom would also deserve to weep because it was "her fault" her son walked to the grocery store. Please, Get real.

I would sincerely hope these kids would be judged on FACTS, NOT their skin color, poverty, or the fact that they live in the "ghetto". I live in the "ghetto" and DEMAND the SAME Justice given to those in the suburbs. NYPD must prove their case, pure and simple. And when they are caught lying, their burden is even tougher.

Also note that both of these young men held jobs, ONE had TWO Jobs, AND were saving there money to buy their mom a house. NOW I ask, how many selfish "thugs" who are badly raised, work 2 Jobs to buy their MOM a HOUSE? Sounds like the MOM actually did something right. They were NOT in prison, but were instead HARD workers, who took care of their mother. How many children buy their mother a house?

THese kids may not be "perfect", but there is NOT yet proof that they "broke the law". ONLY questionable partially disproved and biased testimony from the NYPD itself. The ONLY one so far that has jeopardized their credibility is the NYPD. Their testimony has been scientifically proven to be False. THere are NO independent witnesses or video to support their testimony. THere is ENORMOUS incentive and motive out of self interest and avoidance of discipline for the NYPD to make up ANY of these details.

It is ALSO, interesting how many want think that the mother should Suffer??? Why? She did NOT carry a gun. Did NOTHING Illegal, wasn't at the "CLUB". So still NO sympathy?

Sorry, I am not convinced that the NYPD is telling ANY truth since their statements in this case have been SERIOUSLY Questioned by MEdical Evidence, their lack of reference to forensics, and lack of independent witnesses and testimony.

(But go ahead, keep up the subtle racism and baseless accusations, "baby mama" "drug addict" "bad parent who should be ashamed of herself") If I see any credible evidence to support any of these accusations, then fine. But for now, it just seems like a bunch of very subtle racist and or classist garbage. Seems to me the mom did something RIGHT. THey took care of family, bought her a house and worked 2 jobs. "Gangbanging thugs" don't usually show that much responsibility.

See, it's rhetoric like this that actually perpetuates this behavior. This racism talk, and injustice mess has not helped these communities. I'm a black man from the ghetto and almost out. I'm fed up with senseless murder and transgression from thugs in the street. Black residents who pay taxes are not comfortable around this mess. I am almost out. I've seen hard working tax payers get harrased and robbed by thugs in the street; and guess what? They are the same color. I've been robbed by people who were black. I admit I shouldn't have called this particular mother a crack addict, but I've seen many abusers with kids who get messed over in the streets because the mothers put drugs before the kids. However, the illegitamit "baby father" situation is a social problem that has to be stopped. Where ARE the kids father? Every time issues like this are addressed, or not sugar coated it's considered racism. I've been in trouble before, which explains why I do freelance work, as opposed to working with a fortune 500 company. I've done things and convinced people of my innocence. My parents even tried to justify MY lack of good judgement, knowing I was in the wrong. It's 2008, and it's time to get these communities together, point out the problems, and become productive citizens. Why did this have to happen in the first place. This stemmed from thugs in torn "communities" perpetuating the same behavior that has lead to the police shooting so-called innocent people in the past. Nobody screams racism when thugs kill thugs over colors, drugs, or whatever else. I'm fed up! When the residents of these communities start addressing these issues instead of trying to cover them up, this city, and other cities, will be a much better place. I honestly dont know what happened that night, but if these kids were shooting, they got what they deserved. And I dont feel sorry for the mother if that's the case. Lets stop the thugery!

[Dynamowolf]

While I wont go into a mom losing her sons, i'm kinda with the majority on this one. This isn't a Sean Bell situation. If your sons end up with guns in their hands, then something was out of whack. Brownsville is tough, but values start in the home.

While it's a real shame they both lost their lives, and the NYPD could be involved in another controversy, the first mistake was those guys having guns in the first place.

[Gardier]

Originally Posted by Dynamowolf

While I wont go into a mom losing her sons, i'm kinda with the majority on this one. This isn't a Sean Bell situation. If your sons end up with guns in their hands, then something was out of whack. Brownsville is tough, but values start in the home.

While it's a real shame they both lost their lives, and the NYPD could be involved in another controversy, the first mistake was those guys having guns in the first place.

Whats up, I'm from Brownsville also, Sutter & Tapscott. I agree.

[Huckleberry3911948]

f

Originally Posted by SobroGuy

So this is another story brewing in the media (as if we needed another tragedy). However, it should be noted that based on the evidence, the cops AND the public were in absolute and immediate danger and the shooting was well justified. These two men (both 18 or so), were in a club, and some raucus ensued and they pulled out guns began shooting, cops were on the scene and fired back, subsequently killing the boys, and now the mother is "demanding answers." My question to her is: WE DEMAND ANSWERS FROM YOU MOM! Why were your "loving" boys carrying guns? Why were your "loving" boys shooting at people (and cops)? Why did you not know your "loving" boys had guns, or were associating with the wrong types? This mom could care less that her kids had guns and were shooting at people in the street and cops, all she cares about is why the cops shot back!!!!! Absolutely preposterous....these kids are not victims..they are perpetrators, but these people and cops could have been victims..and she could care less. Mom of brothers slain by cops: I want answers

saturday night victim fevor. it is tiring. exactly when did it become illegal for cops to defend themselves. the sky is cryin.
decriminalize self defense now. stop personal injury suits when the injury occurs during the commission of a crime.
then we will see violent crime plummet.

[SobroGuy]

Gardier I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment about such rhetoric and excuses promoting and legitimizing this horrendous behavior. My question to you though, is seeing as you clearly understand the problems in YOUR community, why are you choosing to run like so many before you? Isn't that a major part of the problem also..people of any means, education, or quality, leave all the rest of the good people behind? The reality is it is a small group of BAD people that make life BAD for the rest of us....and we know this. Instead of RUNNING like so many others, how about STAYING in YOUR community, investing in yourself and your community, and taking steps to make things BETTER. What would our communities be like if all those people who ARE changing the communitites for the better decided to run like you? I could have run also, but I chose to stay. Am I solving the community's problems by staying? Nope..but I am part of the solution by investing and making things better, by wearing a suit and tie to work as most kids are in awe as they never see this..maybe they will remember it? I clean outside my home, and most kids are wondering why..and I tell them, and help them place garbage where it belongs instead of on the street. I wanted to help green my area, so after many phone calls to the city we are getting about 100 new trees (pics to come..they are in the process of planting) in and around my block as part of the million trees initiative. I am only one person...and I am not changing the world, but if I can set a good example for someone else, and plant the seed that will make a difference in my own community, what else is more rewarding than that? If you refuse to help your own community, in whatever small way, how or why do you expect others to? I am not judging, just providing my view. You can make a difference.

[KRISTINsf]

Originally Posted by Gardier

See, it's rhetoric like this that actually perpetuates this behavior. This racism talk, and injustice mess has not helped these communities. I'm a black man from the ghetto and almost out. I'm fed up with senseless murder and transgression from thugs in the street. Black residents who pay taxes are not comfortable around this mess. I am almost out. I've seen hard working tax payers get harrased and robbed by thugs in the street; and guess what? They are the same color. I've been robbed by people who were black. I admit I shouldn't have called this particular mother a crack addict, but I've seen many abusers with kids who get messed over in the streets because the mothers put drugs before the kids. However, the illegitamit "baby father" situation is a social problem that has to be stopped. Where ARE the kids father? Every time issues like this are addressed, or not sugar coated it's considered racism. I've been in trouble before, which explains why I do freelance work, as opposed to working with a fortune 500 company. I've done things and convinced people of my innocence. My parents even tried to justify MY lack of good judgement, knowing I was in the wrong. It's 2008, and it's time to get these communities together, point out the problems, and become productive citizens. Why did this have to happen in the first place. This stemmed from thugs in torn "communities" perpetuating the same behavior that has lead to the police shooting so-called innocent people in the past. Nobody screams racism when thugs kill thugs over colors, drugs, or whatever else. I'm fed up! When the residents of these communities start addressing these issues instead of trying to cover them up, this city, and other cities, will be a much better place. I honestly dont know what happened that night, but if these kids were shooting, they got what they deserved. And I dont feel sorry for the mother if that's the case. Lets stop the thugery!

Sorry that you were robbed by blacks even though you are black. Your money's green isn't it?

[*Capo*]

Originally Posted by Gardier

See, it's rhetoric like this that actually perpetuates this behavior. This racism talk, and injustice mess has not helped these communities. I'm a black man from the ghetto and almost out. I'm fed up with senseless murder and transgression from thugs in the street. Black residents who pay taxes are not comfortable around this mess. I am almost out. I've seen hard working tax payers get harrased and robbed by thugs in the street; and guess what? They are the same color. I've been robbed by people who were black. I admit I shouldn't have called this particular mother a crack addict, but I've seen many abusers with kids who get messed over in the streets because the mothers put drugs before the kids. However, the illegitamit "baby father" situation is a social problem that has to be stopped. Where ARE the kids father? Every time issues like this are addressed, or not sugar coated it's considered racism. I've been in trouble before, which explains why I do freelance work, as opposed to working with a fortune 500 company. I've done things and convinced people of my innocence. My parents even tried to justify MY lack of good judgement, knowing I was in the wrong. It's 2008, and it's time to get these communities together, point out the problems, and become productive citizens. Why did this have to happen in the first place. This stemmed from thugs in torn "communities" perpetuating the same behavior that has lead to the police shooting so-called innocent people in the past. Nobody screams racism when thugs kill thugs over colors, drugs, or whatever else. I'm fed up! When the residents of these communities start addressing these issues instead of trying to cover them up, this city, and other cities, will be a much better place. I honestly dont know what happened that night, but if these kids were shooting, they got what they deserved. And I dont feel sorry for the mother if that's the case. Lets stop the thugery!

I wish others would have these same beliefs because it makes perfect sense. The racism crying b.s. needs to stop. Facts are facts, and if people want to be naive it will only get them victimized down the road. I have no tolerance for people who prey on others, and it would be nice when the "good" people could turn the tables on all these animals living in this country.

[Moderate Guy]

Originally Posted by Gardier

See, it's rhetoric like this that actually perpetuates this behavior. This racism talk, and injustice mess has not helped these communities. I'm a black man from the ghetto and almost out. I'm fed up with senseless murder and transgression from thugs in the street. Black residents who pay taxes are not comfortable around this mess. I am almost out. I've seen hard working tax payers get harrased and robbed by thugs in the street; and guess what? They are the same color. I've been robbed by people who were black. I admit I shouldn't have called this particular mother a crack addict, but I've seen many abusers with kids who get messed over in the streets because the mothers put drugs before the kids. However, the illegitamit "baby father" situation is a social problem that has to be stopped. Where ARE the kids father? Every time issues like this are addressed, or not sugar coated it's considered racism. I've been in trouble before, which explains why I do freelance work, as opposed to working with a fortune 500 company. I've done things and convinced people of my innocence. My parents even tried to justify MY lack of good judgement, knowing I was in the wrong. It's 2008, and it's time to get these communities together, point out the problems, and become productive citizens. Why did this have to happen in the first place. This stemmed from thugs in torn "communities" perpetuating the same behavior that has lead to the police shooting so-called innocent people in the past. Nobody screams racism when thugs kill thugs over colors, drugs, or whatever else. I'm fed up! When the residents of these communities start addressing these issues instead of trying to cover them up, this city, and other cities, will be a much better place. I honestly dont know what happened that night, but if these kids were shooting, they got what they deserved. And I dont feel sorry for the mother if that's the case. Lets stop the thugery!

Criminals could care less what a potential victim's color is - except for hate crime criminals. Most other criminals are out there seeking a victim and the only time race becomes an issue is if they are caught by the system and can then use race as an exit card to get back on the streets and continue wreaking havoc on the rest of society.

Gardier was very eloquent in enunciating some of the issues confronting similar communities across America. The issues of crime, family structure, church, social services have to be addressed by community leaders, ministers, law enforcement acting in unison. One cannot have a cops vs. hood mentality; it must be cops vs. bad guys with help from all the players and constituents on the side of law enforcement.

Another poster asked Gardier why he would seek an exit from his community. I ask why not? Doesn't everyone want to advance in life to better environments for themselves and their families? Isn't America premised on the opportunities it affords us all to be upwardly socially mobile? Sometimes the mobility is from the hood to outside the hood; other times it's from outside the hood to an even more upscale environment. One can move on and up and still care for others left behind, still lend a helping hand in a myriad of ways to address the pressing social issues of the neighborhoods left behind.

It must be individually determined by someone an/or their family whether to move on or stay on. When a decision is made by someone to seek an escape for themselves or their children or loved ones, such action does not necessarily write an epitaph on a neighborhood. There are sometimes other adventurers who come in better equipped and with less baggage who can continue the process of transforming neighborhood after neighborhood so that all who choose to remain can do so feeling assured that it is the right decision for them and their families.

In the meantime, let's all work together to address the social issues of poverty, family, violence, education in these neighborhoods. Let's not scapegoat others and set up smokescreens to shirk responsibility. Let the chips fall where they need to - both within and outside the community. And finally, let's not let the criminals play us all for suckers by crying racism where there might not be any. This only serves to hurt the credibility of others who truly fall victim to injustice and racism.

[LiveChick]

I have mixed feelings about this story. But I do have some remorse that she lost both of her kids.
Any parent would be devastated.
However, WTF were they doing with guns ?? If you're gonna go to a party, go to the party and thats that. What did they need a gun for ?


People who carry guns have an intention ! End of discussion.
I dont ever wanna own a gun, I dont see its use and theres nothing good about guns.
The story does sound weird that they were shot in the back, when cops said they were running at them. But I'll judge that, if I ever found out the real story.

[DesiArnez6]

Originally Posted by *Capo*

I wish others would have these same beliefs because it makes perfect sense. The racism crying b.s. needs to stop. Facts are facts, and if people want to be naive it will only get them victimized down the road. I have no tolerance for people who prey on others, and it would be nice when the "good" people could turn the tables on all these animals living in this country.

Agreed, I HATE people crying racism when there is none. BUT, racism does still exist, that is a Fact. IT might not be a nice or pleasant fact, But it is still a fact. I doubt that you are disputing that racism actually exists. Your not actually disputing that racism still exists I hope?

In that case, I have a Hard time figuring out what "Facts" you are referencing?

So far, no one here has proved any evidence to the claims that the mother is a "drug addict". No one here has supported that by "fact", Am I right?
Also, has Anyone proven that these boys are "thugs"? Now I'm aware that they are "Accused", and that these acts are "Alleged", but that doesn't equate to "Facts". In the United States, it is legally "Alleged" until ruled upon in the courts, upon which the Accusations do, or do not become "facts". I would hope that you are not in favor of changing our justice system into one that says what the police say are automatically "facts", That would be a rather Soviet style of justice , do you not think? I HOPE you aren't one of those Stalinists

So, As you say, Facts are Facts, so what are the FACTS? (Instead of just the Allegations, since there is a difference)

Fact #1: NYPD is scientifically PROVEN to have lied in testimony, they shot the kids in the back, at close enough range to send their bodies flying over the police vehicle.

ALLEGED ACCUSATION #1: This close range shooting in the back is still justified.

Fact #2:Only one gun was found at the scene

Alleged Accusation #2 That this gun and one other belonged to the boys in question.

Rebuttal to #2: Claims made that gun was planted, that the boys never owned ownership.

Fact#3 The boys live across the street from the club

Alleged Accusation #3: Boys were shooting in the club cops saved lives

Rebuttle to #3:Boys were outside the club, only walked cross the street to help a friend being attacked on the premises.

Fact #4: Witnesses on the scene so far support Rebuttal#3, Not Accusation #3

Now I could go on, but I think IT is clear. As you so rightly put, Facts are Facts. Fact, NYPD gave false testimony, that is fact, not allegations.

Facts are always superior to Allegations.


And any alluded baseless remarks about "mamas a drug user", "the boys were thugs", or "baby's daddy drama", etc, When it is based on fact it is justified. If based on Allegations, instead of Fact... Well that my friend IS racism.

I hate when racism card is unjustly called, But am the FIRST to support the charge of racism when it is genuinely deserved.

Now, my friend (As John McCain might phrase ), What exactly would YOU call racially charged statements based on Accusations instead of Fact?

Ahem.. *Cough* *Cough* *Cou----Racism---gh*

Rest my Case