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Old 12-22-2008, 05:00 AM
 
7,079 posts, read 37,878,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woozle View Post
These people were recent arrivals from Southern/Eastern Europe. Outside of immigrant cities, the working class had a far superior standard of living, and people who could speak English fluently lived in far better circumstances even in New York City.
Actually, many were not recent arrivals - there was hardly any middle class in NYC in that era.
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Old 12-22-2008, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC & New York
10,915 posts, read 31,299,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zdg View Post
Frankly, I've yet to see where Manhattan is "so" expensive. We were up there in November to check out the UWS and thought every single meal and grocery visit was almost identical to what we pay for food here inside-the-loop in Houston. I think most of the "outrageous expense" of Manhattan is grossly overblown unless you're moving from the middle of nowhere. Maybe NYC used to be significantly more expensive than other cities, but we honestly never once got sticker shock from a single purchase while we were there last month. I was fully expecting 20% increases over what we were used to....never saw it.
Yes, but much of that depends upon lifestyle, and you might not get a shock on a single purchase, but the city does have a much higher cost index than most of the country, that is noticeable on a macro level. There's no way you can get the same space you have in Houston for the same amount of money, so housing is a huge factor. Yes, you can pay the same mortgage or rent, but the space will be much smaller. Individual items like groceries are easy to ignore the cost at most times, but overall, they do tend to be higher in NYC than many areas of the country, but that also depends upon what one is buying. New York represents compromises, either paying more or downsizing, especially when prime real estate is involved.

Edit: I see the reverse, however, between New York and other places, where things are much less expensive. It's not overblown hype, and many things are the same price. Ralph Lauren will charge $3k for a jacket wherever you are, but incidentals are sometimes double the price in Manhattan. So, while it may not be a shocking difference, exclusive of real estate, on a daily basis, $20 here and $50 there in extra expense can be burdensome for some people who seek to relocate to the city, especially those just out of school or those who do not earn high salaries. I rarely notice prices, since I buy what I need in whatever city I'm in (and have specific requirements), but many in New York, and Manhattan in particular, feel the pinch when it comes to the bottom line.

Last edited by bmwguydc; 12-22-2008 at 09:41 AM..
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Old 12-23-2008, 08:15 AM
zdg
 
Location: Sonoma County
845 posts, read 1,967,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwguydc View Post
There's no way you can get the same space you have in Houston for the same amount of money, so housing is a huge factor. Yes, you can pay the same mortgage or rent, but the space will be much smaller.
Well, yeah, but space isn't everything. The house we're in now is 2100 sf, 1100 sf smaller than our last house, and honestly, we still don't need all this room. I mean, sure, you can spend the same amount of money here, move out to the BFE burbs and live in a McMansion, but what good is that? Now you have a ton of space and zero amenities.

I get what you're saying; you can live in Houston in a 5100 sf house inside the loop but it would be near impossible to do that in Manhattan (unless you're happy to spend $20m+). But even then, being in the middle of Houston isn't exactly the same thing as being in the middle of NYC. You get what you pay for (to some extent anyway) or else no one would pay the premium.

That being said, once you net everything out, Manhattan just isn't that much more expensive than the middle of Houston, which isn't that much more expensive than living in a trendy part of Austin.
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Old 12-23-2008, 08:30 AM
zdg
 
Location: Sonoma County
845 posts, read 1,967,959 times
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Yeah, I just looked our spreadsheet of HOU expenses vs NYC expenses and while the numbers are vastly different on both sides of the spreadsheet (for example, HOU has a huge % going to cars and car expenses while NYC has almost nothing in that column).

Right now, we're spending 89.9% of our paycheck on taxes, housing, transportation, food, utilities, insurance, and other debt payments.

Even with a $1,400/mo increase in housing moving to NY and state/city taxes (unheard of here), our percentage of the same list above drops to 89.2% in NYC.

I just have a hard time believeing we're the only people who would see similar numbers moving from any other major city to NYC. I'm sure the move from a little tiny town to NY is crazy expensive, but then again, the pay increases are just as insane. I saw in here the other day, someone was an exec assistant for $200k in NY. I knew the exec assistant for the CEO of a major company back in El Paso (a company you've heard of) and she was making $35k after 12 years.
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:36 AM
 
709 posts, read 1,495,049 times
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I'll spare you the moral arguments for my radical Anarcho-Capitalist beliefs, but the taxes in NYC are definitely too high, and this is hurting NYC quite a bit. Not only is it losing out to other American cities (from Houston to Salt Lake City), but it's declining internationally as well. Personal taxes in Tokyo (for now NYC's #1 rival in terms of size, total GDP, and corporate presence) are lower, but that's nothing compared to emerging global cities like Dubai, Hong Kong, and Singapore.

In the long-term, ideas like the Free State Project, or, better yet, Seasteading, could take off, creating dozens of "Little Singapores" and ever more tax competition, potentially just ~250 miles (a short helicopter ride) from Manhattan.

"Atlas" may not need to "Shrug" to free himself, just push a few buttons to transfer his capital offshore, and/or buy an apartment in a nice big skyscraper built in the middle of an ocean. (Unless the United Nations starts taxing directly or something, in which case NYC, where the UN headquarters are located, will soon be renamed to Grand Canyon 2.)
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC & New York
10,915 posts, read 31,299,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zdg View Post
Yeah, I just looked our spreadsheet of HOU expenses vs NYC expenses and while the numbers are vastly different on both sides of the spreadsheet (for example, HOU has a huge % going to cars and car expenses while NYC has almost nothing in that column).

Right now, we're spending 89.9% of our paycheck on taxes, housing, transportation, food, utilities, insurance, and other debt payments.

Even with a $1,400/mo increase in housing moving to NY and state/city taxes (unheard of here), our percentage of the same list above drops to 89.2% in NYC.

I just have a hard time believeing we're the only people who would see similar numbers moving from any other major city to NYC. I'm sure the move from a little tiny town to NY is crazy expensive, but then again, the pay increases are just as insane. I saw in here the other day, someone was an exec assistant for $200k in NY. I knew the exec assistant for the CEO of a major company back in El Paso (a company you've heard of) and she was making $35k after 12 years.
I understand your point of view as well, but you're changing lifestyles. You are going to a smaller apartment and are content to give up cars to live in Manhattan, effectively making a lateral transition on the same income by reallocating expenditures to meet the new tax burden and increased housing cost. That makes total sense to me, but the point that many who know NYC well have with expenses is that one can easily be paying more than most other places, depending upon where one shops and for what. Even in the suburbs there's a big difference in daily living expenses like dry cleaning, drug store purchases, etc. Those are the little things that can really stretch a budget to the breaking point to maintain a lifestyle in Manhattan that they had in another city. That's where the increased expenses really come into play, but it is possible not to have that significant a jump through choices and compromises.
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Old 12-24-2008, 05:39 PM
 
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Mobil left NYC in the 1980's primarily because many top people turned down transfer opportunities after seeing home and apt prices.

We lived in a rent stabilized apt so it was good.
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Old 12-24-2008, 07:05 PM
 
6,205 posts, read 7,434,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zdg View Post
Yeah, I just looked our spreadsheet of HOU expenses vs NYC expenses and while the numbers are vastly different on both sides of the spreadsheet (for example, HOU has a huge % going to cars and car expenses while NYC has almost nothing in that column).

Right now, we're spending 89.9% of our paycheck on taxes, housing, transportation, food, utilities, insurance, and other debt payments.

Even with a $1,400/mo increase in housing moving to NY and state/city taxes (unheard of here), our percentage of the same list above drops to 89.2% in NYC.

I just have a hard time believeing we're the only people who would see similar numbers moving from any other major city to NYC. I'm sure the move from a little tiny town to NY is crazy expensive, but then again, the pay increases are just as insane. I saw in here the other day, someone was an exec assistant for $200k in NY. I knew the exec assistant for the CEO of a major company back in El Paso (a company you've heard of) and she was making $35k after 12 years.
You forgot to mention Arod who makes $278 millions !
Sorry pal, but real life is way more complicated then spreadsheets. All these numbers you quoted are out of their context. The question you have to ask: Will anyone pay YOU the $200K ? If yes, go ahead. Perhaps then you will find that even $200K is not that much for NYC... It will be a total change in your lifestyle for which spreadsheets don't count. Like myself (years ago) you probably plan on earning NYC salaries with TX expenses. Other then that, what happens on weekends when you want to get away from the city? What about holidays? You will find that although a car may not be necessary on a daily base, you still want one.
Anyway, good luck with your move!
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Central, NJ
2,730 posts, read 6,100,283 times
Reputation: 4110
I guess the best time to live in Manhattan is when your 22 and you don't mind roommates, eating pizza every night and buying your "groceries" in Rite Aid. It might not seem so expensive when this is your lifestyle. But if you're looking to do more than a brief stint in NYC you need your OWN place, and enough money for retirement contributions, actual food and the occassional vacation.
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:40 PM
 
Location: New York
1,999 posts, read 4,983,952 times
Reputation: 2035
Default tax parasite

The problem is that impressive is NY is the tax parasite lurking in the guts of the city is even more impressive. Just like a physical parasite that lurks in the body the parasite will do most of its damage when the immune system is compromised. Now that the economy has been decimated by a max out of debt the parasite will begin to attack the host taxpayers in a desperate attempt to maintain the parasites level of growth. You can see the beginnings of the tax parasite swinging into action with raised property tax, increased income tax and all sorts of new taxes on everyday items like soda. It is these burdensome taxes that will drive taxpayers out of the area and to help make this place a warzone in just a few years. The entire cycle is coming together before our eyes. If you stick around watch and enjoy and prepare to go black market to stay parasite protected.
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