Is it shocking how few people know about the boroughs of NYC? (Ridge: party, girls)

[Fred314X]

Here's another little fact about boroughs and boundaries: politically, the East River is Manhattan territory. The official border between Manhattan/Queens and Manhattan/Brooklyn is the low water mark on the Long Island side of the river. (That's why Roosevelt Island has a Manhattan zip code, in case you wondered).

[KENNY GUIDO]

Originally Posted by rlrl

have a lot of indian names? Chenango, Chemung, Cheyenne all I know is that there are 62 counties in NY. (i'm not going to be silly and say there are counties named Buffalo, Syracuse and Rochester!!)

dont forget massapequa!

[Fred314X]

Originally Posted by KENNY GUIDO

dont forget massapequa!

And as long as we're here in the city--let's not forget which forum this is, after all--we've got plenty of Native American names scattered throughout the boroughs. We could start with Manhattan, from the Mahattes tribe in residence when the Dutch got here.

In Brooklyn, there's Gowanus (after Gouwane, the local sachem who sold land to the first Dutch) and Canarsie (that tribe was actually living throughout the area, not just in that neighborhood).

And in The Bronx, you can take a walk along Mosholu Parkway--yeah, that was a Native American place name, originally.

[citychik]

Here's a little bit of history about the formation of NYC's boroughs and counties from the NY Genealogiocal and Biographical Society, and a really cool page about Marble Hill from Kevin Walsh (who posts here sometimes, doesn't he?).

FWIW - I grew up in northern NJ, where boroughs are prevalent, and I was still totally confused by NYC's delineations when I first moved here. To me, a borough designated a kind of town that had a certain government structure and is part of a county, not the whole county. And there are still villages within some boroughs, too, right? See, I'm still not too sure - hahaha. In my early days here, someone gave me an "address finder" to learn my way around - do they still make those? It's a card you carry with you (I still have it over 20 years later) with little mathematical formulas to tell you what cross streets a NYC address is near. Drop the last number, divide by 2, and add a certain number depending which avenue you're looking at.

After I started researching my family tree I learned so much. I highly recommend visiting the municipal archives once in a while and look at the old maps, photographs, and city directories.

Oh, and for the person who said they've been here for a few months and wants to learn more (and for anyone who has relatives coming to visit) - take a Circle Line cruise. Go for the one that goes all the way around Manhattan - it's a really cool learning experience (there are other companies, but I have a fondness for Circle Line, since I took my first trip with them at age 7 or 8). I once went on an overcast day and the fog had rolled in when we got up near the Spuyten Duyvil. We could barely see the park and the cliffs, and I imagined being on the Half Moon with Henry Hudson. Usually, the guides have a good bunch of facts and trivia to throw out at you. Once my sister went (about 20 years ago) and saw the police pull a body out of the East River, while the Circle Line tour guide was frantically trying to draw everyone's attention away from that and toward the opposite bank!

I'm not surprised that people don't know the geography or much of NYC's history. As for people not from here, most tourists just stick to the touristy areas in the guide books and rarely venture to lesser known parts unless someone takes them. Lots of visitors to the city aren't used to walking as much as one needs to discover the out of the way places here. My hubby and I walked all over Boston, all over Chicago, and people there were shocked: "You walked??!!" I remember when I had cousins visit from Arizona and we took a leisurely stroll to a restaurant which was 20 blocks away. They acted like I was torturing them. I said, "You just walked a mile." and they all groaned.

As for Noo Yawkas getting to know their own city, if they've spent some time here you would expect them to know what a borough is - hahaha - but I would think that so many of us are working long hours or two jobs to pay the rent, while trying to have a social life, I understand the ignorance... it takes some effort to read up on history or explore an unfamiliar neighborhood. I have ancestors who came to the city in the late 1800's so I took an interest, but for someone who's here just to make some money or go to school and then split, they'll probably not bother much.

[KENNY GUIDO]

i love pissing my friends off that live in yonkers and westchester by referring to them as "living upstate!"

[Fred314X]

Originally Posted by KENNY GUIDO

i love pissing my friends off that live in yonkers and westchester by referring to them as "living upstate!"

You mean they don't think of themselves as living upstate?

[nyctc7]

Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean

Queens was a late bloomer.

This must be why Queens is the only borough that uses the neighborhood name in the mailing addresses, for example, Richmond Hill, NY instead of Queens, NY. I also found it interesting that when I was watching a doc on Don Rickles, he said he was born in "Jackson Heights, Long Island" he didn't say, "Jackson Heights, Queens"

[holden125]

Originally Posted by nyctc7

This must be why Queens is the only borough that uses the neighborhood name in the mailing addresses, for example, Richmond Hill, NY instead of Queens, NY. I also found it interesting that when I was watching a doc on Don Rickles, he said he was born in "Jackson Heights, Long Island" he didn't say, "Jackson Heights, Queens"

Prior to the consolidation of the five boroughs in 1898, there was already a city of Brooklyn that contained most of present-day Brooklyn, but Queens County contained a number of villages. They retained their local mailing addresses.

Today we think of "Long Island" as encompassing Nassau and Suffolk counties, i.e. the counties on L.I. that contain separate towns, cities, and villages within them. Prior to 1898 Queens County also fit that description and references to "Jamaica, L.I." or "Flushing, L.I." were common. I don't think he was born before 1898, but old habits die hard.

New Jersey, by the way, is the only state I know of that refers to independent "Small Town USA" places as "boroughs." NJ has cities (the bigger denser places like Newark, Trenton, etc.), boroughs (small towns), and townships (the formerly rural places in between the boroughs and cities that are now filled with suburban sprawl.)

Within Greater London, which was traditionally the county of London, there was the "City of London," which was the small old central part where the financial sector had set up shop, and then other divisions such as the "City of Westminster" or the "Borough of Southwark." Similar to NJ.

I don't know of anything similar to NYC, where a "borough" is equivalent to a county and you need several of them together to make a "city" but it's due to the way the five-borough NYC was formed from the merger of pre-existing cities and counties.

What I find really odd is the rest of NYS. In New Jersey or New England, every inch of the state is divided into counties, and every inch of the counties is divided into municipalities (cities or towns). In New York State, the same is generally true, except people within a town can petition to create a "village" within that town. It's not accurate, however, to say that the towns are divided into villages. Rather, there are a lot of villages within each of these towns and also certain areas in the town that are not included within any village.

For example, Nassau County contains ONLY the City of Long Beach, the City of Glen Cove, and the Towns of Hempstead, North Hempstead, and Oyster Bay. However, the towns contain within their borders numerous villages such as Lynbrook, Valley Stream, etc. Some of these "villages" are only three blocks long (e.g. Roslyn Estates, Munsey Park). The village lines have nothing to do with ZIP code, and therefore mailing address, and are not coextensive with the school districts either. Some services are provided by the "village" and some by the town. Taxes go to the town, the village, the school district, who knows. My cousins live in the village of East Rockaway but within the Lynbrook school district. Thus the Westchester real estate ads that refer to "Yonkers, Scarsdale P.O." Your address is "Scarsdale" but you vote for the mayor of Yonkers.

Then there's the rest of the country, where there are some incorporated towns and cities within counties, but also lots of "unincorporated land." Cities like Houston and Jacksonville have increased their size by simply annexing all the unincorporated areas (and some towns) around them. I'm used to Massachusetts, where there's been hardly a change in the town lines since 1870.

[holden125]

An example of "villages" mixing and matching town and local village services from website of Munsey Park in Manhasset:

Village History

[KENNY GUIDO]

Originally Posted by Fred314X

You mean they don't think of themselves as living upstate?

nope, not at all. they just dont even think about to tell you the truth. it pisses them off though when you say that they live upstate. they argue with me and I tell them theres only 3 parts of new york: long island, the 5 boroughs and upstate!

I remember telling my wife that brooklyn was on long island and she was shocked. she actually thought brooklyn was an island all by itself!