Quality of life for people who make less than $100K (New York: transplants, rent)

[havoc315]

Middle class means different things to different people. And obviously, there is a big difference in "middle class" for a single 25-year-old, and a family with 2 elementary school aged children.

The truth is, families earning 200-300K in NYC and the surrounding areas, can certainly fit within the definition of "middle class."

And I would place 50K, for a single person, on the low end of middle class in the NYC area. For a single person with no real commitments, it seems anything under 100K is still middle class.

To reply to the mjohnson, don't forget you will need to pay city tax. Even without a car, you will have transportation costs, utility costs, etc. I do think you could make it work for 50 K, but you will be in an outer borough, not in the most prestigious neighborhood, and you will be carefully budgetting.

[Chelsa1075]

You are 150% right!

[crisp444]

Originally Posted by tpk-nyc

New York City and Hawaii are quite similar, not in terms of culture, because they are both groups of islands with a high cost of living. People all over the world fantasize about living there (for very different reasons) and this desirability drives up the price. They both have a lot of the very rich and the very poor; those in the middle feel increasingly squeezed.

It occurs to me that, living in such places, one experiences a "class-lifestyle-shift." Whatever class-lifestyle one could expect to have in most of the country, given a certain income, you have to shift down one class-lifestyle in New York City. Thus people earning a middle-class salary, a school teacher for example, often live a comparatively working-class lifestyle in New York. This goes all the way up the income ladder. My boss makes nearly $2M. In most any other part of the country he would be considered wealthy. However he has four kids, all of whom are in private school, and is paying for a 5-bedroom co-op in central Manhattan, etc. He is certainly comfortable and upper-middle class, but far from rich. To continue the analogy from earlier posts: he can afford to eat at Per Se on occasion, be he can't afford to live in the Time Warner Building (at least not if he wants 5 bedrooms).

Going back to cost-benefit analysis, to be happy here there has to be something else, let's call it the "NY-factor," that compensates for the class-lifestyle-shift. Your NY-factor is your passion for subways, cultural amenities, restaurants, career possibilities, energy, diversity of people, etc. If your NY-factor is high, it will balance out the downward pull of the class-lifestyle-shift. However, if your personal NY-factor is low to moderate, downward pull of the class-lifestyle-shift will ultimately leave you unsatisfied.

You make some good observations but I feel compelled to disagree with some of your statements.

I will start with some facts:

1) Under 1.5% of American households have yearly earnings in excess of $250,000

2) Merely 0.12% of American households - yes, slight over one tenth of one percent - have earnings of $1,600,000 or more.

It seems to me that Americans in general have an aversion to labeling themselves as well-off, and that is bothersome to me. It is very frustrating for me to hear so many people claiming to be "middle class" on an income that is well into the six-figure range. It is equally as frustrating to hear you say that your boss, with an income of $2,000,000 per year, is "upper middle class."

Upper middle class people could never dream of purchasing a five-bedroom coop in a nice area of Manhattan. Upper middle class people could not afford to spend $30,000/year private school tuition for four children every year. Being able to afford these things makes you wealthy and there is no way to get around this.

The wealth in this country is fantastic. However, the attitudes that people possess regarding it are delusional. Purchasing an apartment in Manhattan is a luxury in and of itself; I know people who have purchased studios and small one-bedroom apartments to be able to live in by far one of the most coveted locations in the entire world. Sure, they could afford a mansion outside of Atlanta, but this is immaterial when we are talking about class. Maybe they'd "feel" more wealthy in suburban Atlanta, but class isn't about what you "feel;" it's about your socioeconomic standing compared with that of everyone else.

Do Americans really need mansions and SUV's and vacation homes and lots of land to "feel" wealthy? The sad answer seems to be yes, and unfortunately, even some intelligent, worldly, and sophisticated "new money" upper-class New Yorkers have been duped into believing this. You can "feel" as poor as you want, but that doesn't change your socioeconomic class one bit. Rich is rich is rich is rich in Monaco, New York, Beverly Hills, Miami Beach or anywhere else in the wealthy, developed world.

[Chelsa1075]

Crisp - your idea of middle class and anothers are very different. My idea of a middle class family is a couple own a modest home have a couple of kids and at least one car, can take vacations once a year and still manage to have a bit of savings for their kids college fund. Have your kids in some outside activity, etc. You can not do this and live whe "ideal comfortable life" in NYC on less than 100K or 200K for that matter. No we don't need the SUV, but isn't that what separates someone from being middle class versus poor??? I'm afraid to ask what you are making as it makes you so upset to hear ones salary and then you go into like attack mode about how you can't hear people say that they are not middle class. I don't know how long you have lived in NYC, but while I wouldn't classify 2M as middle class, I can certainly understand that the money doesn't stretch as far as people may think. If you have to do with out every luxury mentionable then I don't think that you are or would be considered middle class. As the other post said Middle Class is different for different people. But I would think(?) that when most people get a picture of middle class in their head, it isn't someone who is budgeting every penny so they can go out with their friends once a month because they are not sure if they will make the rent or be able to buy food. I don't know what do you think

[Chelsa1075]

Let's not mistake Wealth for having money - there are many rich people, many of them are not wealthy! Wealth doesn't go away with a Madoff scheme, rich does.

[havoc315]

There is the difference between "middle class" as some sort of mathematical middle, and what Americans picture as a "middle class lifestyle." And the fact is, the middle class lifestyle is significantly more expensive in the NYC area, than say the St. Louis, or Raleigh-Durham areas, as examples.

Someone who has a 3 bedroom, 1800 sf apartment, owning 1 car, taking 1 vacation per year, barely saving any money--- Such a person might be mathematically "rich" in NYC, but certainly not living a "rich" lifestyle.

[mjohnson4381]

Originally Posted by Chelsa1075

where do you live Mjohnson? You may be able to do it. I never said you couldn't, but again, don't forget about cable, electric, phone, laundry that will not be in you apartment (perhaps in a building), but still relatively close also, you haven't deducted the medical stuff. You can live, I just think it will be modestly.

I live in Little Rock, which I realize is a completely different world than NYC. I've lived alone for the past four years, so I'm used to paying my own bills. I realize that everything costs way more in New York. I think that's probably because Arkansas just doesn't appeal to many people.

I think I'm good at managing money, I came from a lower class family, so I'm completely comfortable with budgeting. When I first moved to Little Rock, I only made $25K and I stuck to a budget of $100 a month for groceries, I didn't have cable or internet, and my apartment didn't have a washer or dryer. I lived there for a year, then I started getting raises, so I didn't worry as much after that. I'm pretty proud of that accomplishment

What really interests me about NYC is all the culture and diversity. Somebody else mentioned the NY-factor. That appeals to me.

[Chelsa1075]

Havoc - I love you - I guess, I wasn't getting my point accrossed clearly and sorry to those who misunderstood. What you said is exactly what I meant - I am not rich nor do I live a rich life style, but between my husband and I we make over 150K, I promise that we do not do disney every year or eat out on a regular basis. I mean I have 2 boys and live okay, but to save for a house, I will have to save for years and years and years or have a really housing payment. I work hard and would love the house with the picket fence, but I feel like it is a futile fight that I will not win here.

[tpk-nyc]

Originally Posted by crisp444

Upper middle class people could never dream of purchasing a five-bedroom coop in a nice area of Manhattan. Upper middle class people could not afford to spend $30,000/year private school tuition for four children every year. Being able to afford these things makes you wealthy and there is no way to get around this.

You miss the point. I'm comparing lifestyles, not income. Upper-middle class people expect to have a bedroom for every child and probably a guest room just as they expect to provide a good education for their children. These are not particularly extravagant expectations. However, if you live in Manhattan and you have these upper-middle class expectations, you have to make a tremendous amount of money to maintain what, in other parts of the country, would be an upper-middle class lifestyle.

That is the "class-lifestyle-shift." He unquestionably makes an upper-class income but lives what someone in Houston would consider an upper-middle class lifestyle. He does not own a ski lodge in Colorado (or a second house at all). He flies on Jet Blue if he's not traveling for business. If he lived in Texas he could have a small palace with a butler and gardener for that kind of cash.

It's not about whether or not "upper middle class people could ... dream of purchasing a five-bedroom coop in a nice area of Manhattan" or "afford to spend $30,000/year private school tuition for four children every year." The point is: they can't. Unless you’re a billionaire, everyone has to shift down a lifestyle-class in order to live here. His income is not upper-middle class, but his lifestyle is.

[Chelsa1075]

Then it sounds this is the place for you.