Why do ethnic neighborhoods change? (Cuba, York: home, movie theaters, inspections)

[Bronxguyanese]

Yeah there is. Im not sure its true or not but I heard there is still a small enclave of Italians that live in East Harlem numbering around 200-300 persons. I know one part of East Harlem was italian while the other part of East Harlem was Puerto Rican.

[Fred314X]

Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese

Yeah there is. Im not sure its true or not but I heard there is still a small enclave of Italians that live in East Harlem numbering around 200-300 persons. I know one part of East Harlem was italian while the other part of East Harlem was Puerto Rican.

The changes Harlem has gone through would make quite a documentary! It was, of course, founded by the Dutch (Haarlem being the city it was named for). The area around Mount Morris Park--sorry, it's Marcus Garvey Park these days, isn't it?--used to be Jewish Harlem. What we now think of as Spanish Harlem was Italian. That remnant is probably in the area of Pleasant Avenue, which used to be the center of the Italian community there.

[Bronxguyanese]

lets not forget that before the dutch in harlem it was the algonquin indians that lived there. Harlem went through alot of ethnic groups. I agree Harlem would be a perfect documentary of ethnic changes over the past generations!

[7 Wishes]

Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese

A good example of Jewish presense in washington hieghts is Yeshiva college and good example of German presense is Henry Kessinger former advisor for the past current and past from Obama to Nixon

Ironically, Kissinger is Jewish and came to America because he was fleeing the Germans

Originally Posted by jawny08
I've heard stories of real estate brokers in the 1950s-1970s flagging certain white neighborhoods.

They would go to traditionally white urban neighborhoods and tell all the people in the neighborhood that it was going to become a ___ neighborhood in the near future and that they should sell while they still can. This way the brokers could make a lot of money from people selling and buying new homes.

It was called "blockbusting". Today it's done more indirectly, where people looking for a home are "steered" towards and away from certain areas. It's not as common or blatant anymore, but it's not non-existant either.

[NooYowkur81]

Originally Posted by 7 Wishes

Ironically, Kissinger is Jewish and came to America because he was fleeing the Germans

Originally Posted by jawny08
I've heard stories of real estate brokers in the 1950s-1970s flagging certain white neighborhoods.

They would go to traditionally white urban neighborhoods and tell all the people in the neighborhood that it was going to become a ___ neighborhood in the near future and that they should sell while they still can. This way the brokers could make a lot of money from people selling and buying new homes.

It was called "blockbusting". Today it's done more indirectly, where people looking for a home are "steered" towards and away from certain areas. It's not as common or blatant anymore, but it's not non-existant either.

Yeah steering was still pretty common locally (LI especially has had a lot of issues with this) even up into the early 2000's. I'm sure it still goes on to a certain extent.

[nycricanpapi]

I don't know I guess it is because they want another lifestyle. For example, before The Bronx were only Italians, Jewish, Germans, etc.. However now The Bronx is mainly Hispanics(Puerto Ricans, Dominicans) and Blacks (African Americans, Africans, Nigeria)..But yeah it is very interesting when the neighborhoods change. Moreover it could be because people want to stay with their own type of ethnicity so when they know there will be an influx of another ethinicty they rapidly want to move out from the neighborhood.

[BKTony]

I don't beleive neighborhoods change out of fear or dislike or white flight or anything. I think it is just natural economic improvement. Neighborhoods seem to constanly change ethnicity over time. As ethnic groups are in America a few generations they get more established economically and move onto greener pastures. For example after a few generations, Italian Americans had improved their economic condition enough in America that they could now afford to buy homes in the suburbs vice renting apartments in the city. The same could be said about the Jews in Brownsville after 50 or so years they have ebough finances to move to bigger and better housing which was the one of the reasons they move out. The ethnic neighborhood while important is often looked at as an entry point or stepping stone to achieving the American dream. Washington Heights believe it or not was an entry point for Irish and Germen Immigrants several generations back. I grew up in Bushwick, a predominantly Latino neighborhood now but before World War II it was an Italian, Irish, and Jewish neighborhood. NYC is a huge draw for immigrants all over the world looking to make a better life in America. Just one of the reasons NYC is so great.

[7 Wishes]

Originally Posted by BKTony

I don't beleive neighborhoods change out of fear or dislike or white flight or anything. I think it is just natural economic improvement. Neighborhoods seem to constanly change ethnicity over time. As ethnic groups are in America a few generations they get more established economically and move onto greener pastures. For example after a few generations, Italian Americans had improved their economic condition enough in America that they could now afford to buy homes in the suburbs vice renting apartments in the city. The same could be said about the Jews in Brownsville after 50 or so years they have ebough finances to move to bigger and better housing which was the one of the reasons they move out. The ethnic neighborhood while important is often looked at as an entry point or stepping stone to achieving the American dream. Washington Heights believe it or not was an entry point for Irish and Germen Immigrants several generations back. I grew up in Bushwick, a predominantly Latino neighborhood now but before World War II it was an Italian, Irish, and Jewish neighborhood. NYC is a huge draw for immigrants all over the world looking to make a better life in America. Just one of the reasons NYC is so great.

It's a little of both. Of course if you can suddenly afford it, why wouldn't you move to Scarsdale or Greenwich rather than stay in a small apartment in the Bronx, but much of it was sped up by fear and by real estate agents playing on fear. And I think what you saw is a little more true about neighborhoods changing from one white ethnic group to another (i.e. Irish to Italian or Jewish).

When we moved in 1974 from the Bronx to the neighborhood I grew up in from then on (and it was more suburban looking than "urban"), the block was more or less equal parts Irish, Italian, and Jewish, many of whom ironically moved from the Bronx in the previous 10-15 years. The first black family moved in 4 years later (and they were typical of any other family "moving up", the wife was a mid-level manager for AT&T, the husband was a HS teacher, they moved in an apartment in the Bronx, just had their first child and wanted a house; socio-economically they very much "fit in"). Quite a few people (not all) immediately planned a move after that. And then when they were selling their house, some neighbors would pressure them to not sell to minorities and "ruin the neighborhood" (give me a break!). Well, I guess many people at least at that time did have a "fear" of "different" because not one white person/family bought a house after that in that neighborhood to this day.

An interesting side note from my observation growing up there is how different ethnic groups handled "white flight". The Jews tended to be the first to quietly "sell and flee", the Italians were the last but tended to "fight" to the point of breaking the law (not rocks in windows or cross burnings or anything at that level, more like being the ones most pressuring other neighbors, or when they did sell their house, tried most to somehow deter minority buyers, like saying bad things about the house when one came by to see it), the Irish kind of fell in between but closer to the Italians.

Again, these were generalizations and there were exceptions, though by 1990 my parents (I was off in college by then) were the only whites left. They didn't leave because they knew from owning convenience stores in minority areas not to be afraid of all the stereotypes and the families who moved in were not really different from who moved out except for the color of their skin (i.e. one neighbor was a police officer, another was also a mid-manager for a Fortune 500 company, etc.). My mom still lives there today and gets along with everyone fine.

It is probably less true that this would happen today, but I'd say that is only true since maybe the late 90s or so as you both see a growing non-white middle class and more acceptance of things like inter-racial families, etc.

[Ninjahedge]

I think there already is a documentary on a lot of the areas in NYC....

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[otters21]

Originally Posted by 7 Wishes

Ironically, Kissinger is Jewish and came to America because he was fleeing the Germans

Originally Posted by jawny08
I've heard stories of real estate brokers in the 1950s-1970s flagging certain white neighborhoods.

They would go to traditionally white urban neighborhoods and tell all the people in the neighborhood that it was going to become a ___ neighborhood in the near future and that they should sell while they still can. This way the brokers could make a lot of money from people selling and buying new homes.

It was called "blockbusting". Today it's done more indirectly, where people looking for a home are "steered" towards and away from certain areas. It's not as common or blatant anymore, but it's not non-existant either.

Those tactics should have been made illegal back in the day. Breaking up neighborhoods where homes have been in the families for generations is just cruel and greedy. Now look at the mess concerning our urban neighbrhoods we have today. All for the almighty dollar. Unfortunately it is still happening today but only in a differant form-section 8. Safe affordable urban blue collar Joe areas in our cities just keep on dwindling down. If this mess does not get curtailed soon , they will become a thing of the past. Not everybody including families with kids like to live in auto centric suburbs and exurbs where there are tasteless cookie cutter homes impersonal strip malls and shopping centers and and having a car is mandatory if you want to get around.