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Old 05-18-2007, 03:15 PM
 
359 posts, read 2,395,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NooYowkur81 View Post
You make some interesting points Hustla. The main question is will the young professionals that are attracted to Harlem stay in the area once they are more financially stable. My guess is some will, but most will not. Most will probably move to other areas.

The thing is that a lot of building and development is going on there and not all of it is of the quick buck variety. There are some really nice condo buildings that have been built sprinkled throughtout Harlem. Whoever is developing these buildings is thinking of a long term investment.

My guess is there will be kind of a transient vibe in Harlem, young professionals moving in, but eventually moving out, new young professionals move, so on and so forth. It will be like this for the next 10 to 15 years probably. What happens after that I don't know. Hard to tell.

Drugs and low income is usually a mix for crime, so that is going to exist. That isn't going away anytime soon but I really have a hard time seeing Harlem going back to how it was during the peak of the crack epidemic. I don't think it will ever be that bad again. Which is progress. Maybe not the miracle some make it out to be, but it is progress.
Thats how I usually look at Harlem. Kinda like a hotel. But the thing is a Hotel doesnt go out of buisness when a group of people leave. More people just keep coming in. Yes these yuppies will probably end up moving to the UWS or Midtown when they have the cash but more will just pour right in. Ofcaurse this is going to hurt the blacks in the neighborhood because they are getting kicked out. Not sure if you caught the special on Hippies on i think History Channel a couple of nights ago. They were talking about a very similiar thing. They mentioned that if not for Young Professionals and Hippies moving into African-American neighborhoods that Blacks in urban environments might have a higher social status today. It kind of makes sense. But I think in Harlem we are going to see a huge economic gap between blacks and whites. Because of the number of project buildings, which will probably not get knocked down and because of the high income young people coming in, things will be interesting. Newark did the smart thing and knocked down alot of its Project buildings. Now the city has a more open canvas for people to come in. Its probably to late for Harlem. Also a very interesting thing. I saw the other day, (just to show that this problem isnt just in Harlem) I was driving on Amsterdam I think in the 60's or 50's and I look to my right and see a huge PJ. And then I look to my left and see all these high rises that probably cost 3,000,000 dollars. Kinda makes you think.
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Old 05-19-2007, 07:19 AM
 
433 posts, read 1,386,717 times
Reputation: 145
CrazyKid: What is it you want people to do? It seems like you obviously hate white people moving into areas (white people in general???) popualted by poorer AA's and Latinos. Maybe all the middle-class people should move out then? How about we empty out the UES/UWS/Soho/Tribeca/Etc of all those welathy people? And kick out those high-paying office jobs too....


...guess what....within about 2-3 years after such an event, the municipal budget of NYC would completely crash. Imagine NYPD cut in half or more? Subway lines totally abandoned. Hospitals and schools shuttered. Plus, there are 3million+ whites in NYC? Can you imagine a 3 million person population loss? Abandoned buildings everywhere? And of course, Crime and drug use would soar, leading back to the era of 2,000 homicides. Most of them Black and Latino BTW. Maybe 5,000? 8,000? a year? And then of course, the hard working middle-class Blacks/Asians/Latinos of Queens and Brooklyn would flee too.

Yes, CrazyUno, run for mayor. I'll be on a beach in Australia where this crazy bull**** doesn't fly.
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Old 05-19-2007, 07:33 AM
 
Location: South Charlotte
233 posts, read 812,990 times
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Default City Talk

Quote:
Originally Posted by NooYowkur81 View Post
You make some interesting points Hustla. The main question is will the young professionals that are attracted to Harlem stay in the area once they are more financially stable. My guess is some will, but most will not. Most will probably move to other areas.

The thing is that a lot of building and development is going on there and not all of it is of the quick buck variety. There are some really nice condo buildings that have been built sprinkled throughtout Harlem. Whoever is developing these buildings is thinking of a long term investment.

My guess is there will be kind of a transient vibe in Harlem, young professionals moving in, but eventually moving out, new young professionals move, so on and so forth. It will be like this for the next 10 to 15 years probably. What happens after that I don't know. Hard to tell.

Drugs and low income is usually a mix for crime, so that is going to exist. That isn't going away anytime soon but I really have a hard time seeing Harlem going back to how it was during the peak of the crack epidemic. I don't think it will ever be that bad again. Which is progress. Maybe not the miracle some make it out to be, but it is progress.

I do believe the initial 'crack era' is responsible for the decay of many areas around NYC. I remember when I was younger (in The Bronx), many of the stores did not have metal gates, there were newspaper boxes on the corner, pretty much the streets were clean. When crack hit, things changed immediately. Stores of course started using metal gates and protectors, news paper stands were removed, and the streets were infested with crack bottles. Much of city housing prior to crack, were not horrible. After crack, close to all Projects were horrible.

Unfortunately, the City officials stopped investing in NYC. Many school programs were cut, like after school programs. I loved going to the after school program. It's unfortunate that the quality of public school is determined by the tax bracket of residents in the immediate neighborhood. I just happened to make a decision to pay attention in school and seek the need to want more for myself. If given the option, I wouldn't have kids in a high risk envirionment. Remember that peer pressure is strong and regardless of your parenting style, good kids can easily go bad.

Well, I have lived all around the Bronx, and have family in all 5 borroughs, and if I had to move back to NY, I would prefer to live 1 hour from the city, not in the heart of the city. However, as a teenager/ early twenties, I had to be in the city (in the mix and in the know). I felt like I had to be out every week night, every weekend, shopping, eating out, going to plays, museums, theaters, latest clothes, etc...So, I do understand wanting to live close to it all, but weigh the pros and cons, especially when factoring in children and seeking a better life.
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Old 05-19-2007, 08:28 AM
 
359 posts, read 2,395,858 times
Reputation: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by briarwood View Post
CrazyKid: What is it you want people to do? It seems like you obviously hate white people moving into areas (white people in general???) popualted by poorer AA's and Latinos. Maybe all the middle-class people should move out then? How about we empty out the UES/UWS/Soho/Tribeca/Etc of all those welathy people? And kick out those high-paying office jobs too....


...guess what....within about 2-3 years after such an event, the municipal budget of NYC would completely crash. Imagine NYPD cut in half or more? Subway lines totally abandoned. Hospitals and schools shuttered. Plus, there are 3million+ whites in NYC? Can you imagine a 3 million person population loss? Abandoned buildings everywhere? And of course, Crime and drug use would soar, leading back to the era of 2,000 homicides. Most of them Black and Latino BTW. Maybe 5,000? 8,000? a year? And then of course, the hard working middle-class Blacks/Asians/Latinos of Queens and Brooklyn would flee too.

Yes, CrazyUno, run for mayor. I'll be on a beach in Australia where this crazy bull**** doesn't fly.
OK so you completley missed the point. I never said we should kick white people out. I never even mentioned race once. Thats all you. If you want to assume because i said rich that i meant white than that is your problem. And i never said kick anyone out or anything extreme. What I was getting at was that it is the constant increase of people moving into poorer areas with the intent to buy cheap and sell high that is destroying new york. Not sure if you know this but the average income of someone in New York is 45,000 a year. Now, do you know anyone who could live off that in the city, if there are people doing it there are very few. Now how could a statistic like this appear? Hmmm i wonder. ITs because rent prices are raised so much so rapidly that a middle class who is to rich to want to live in the PJ's and to poor to live in an expensive high rise are moving out of the city. What we have left is poverty stricken people one block, and millionares the next. All I was getting at was that the economic gap between New Yorkers is way to vast. Its not a stable environment. NOw if you want to make this about race and about "kicking out" all the rich people you can. I never said that. All im saying is that there are other ways to make bad neighborhoods nice than kicking out all the poor people. And oh yea...Im white. But i guess i hate myself.
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Old 05-19-2007, 09:02 AM
 
433 posts, read 1,386,717 times
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Uhhh...Poor people are not being kicked out. And even if they were, there is far more low-income oppertunity in other places that actually have low income jobs.

I agree there needs to be a middle class. But you've never addressed that. You're always going on about poor neighborhoods. You're the kid who wants to move to Newark (good luck with that....seriously). NYC needs less poor people. The goal is not to keep a poor population, but to help them become middle class.


The argument that gentrification is keeping Blacks in Harlem down is utter bull****. Crack/Redlining/Racism/Reverse-Racism/Stop Snitching is why Harlem is in the state that it's in. Hustla718 is right on the money, these people choose to commit crime, and blame any whites/wealthy people around for their problems.


Jealously is why people hate gentrification. Jealous that people, including their own (Wealthy Blacks/Latinos), can make a name for themselves and be a positive force in their communites. That when people stop the excuses, everyone can achieve.
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Old 05-19-2007, 09:59 AM
 
359 posts, read 2,395,858 times
Reputation: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by briarwood View Post
Uhhh...Poor people are not being kicked out. And even if they were, there is far more low-income oppertunity in other places that actually have low income jobs.

I agree there needs to be a middle class. But you've never addressed that. You're always going on about poor neighborhoods. You're the kid who wants to move to Newark (good luck with that....seriously). NYC needs less poor people. The goal is not to keep a poor population, but to help them become middle class.


The argument that gentrification is keeping Blacks in Harlem down is utter bull****. Crack/Redlining/Racism/Reverse-Racism/Stop Snitching is why Harlem is in the state that it's in. Hustla718 is right on the money, these people choose to commit crime, and blame any whites/wealthy people around for their problems.


Jealously is why people hate gentrification. Jealous that people, including their own (Wealthy Blacks/Latinos), can make a name for themselves and be a positive force in their communites. That when people stop the excuses, everyone can achieve.
I never said its other peoples fault that blacks are commiting crimes. People who choose to break the law are fully responsible and have no right to blame others. I knwo thiss. Im white and grew up in a town thats mostly black and hispanic. I was always being shut down for supposivley "Keeping the black man down". Ofcaurse thats rediculous because I or my ancestors never did anything. My ancestors (jewish russains) were in the same predicaments. I do agree that blacks tend to blame other people for their condition(not all blacks mind you). What im trying to get at is that there are ways to make poor areas prosper without raising rents. Things like bankloans to locally owned buisnesses or having more connection between parents in the schools and etc. However there is no denying that this huge influx of upperclass people who's main purpose living in bad neigborhoods is to fix up houses and sell them for higher prices is not helping these people who live there. Obviously this is not the only problem. But because it is a problem things like i stated before (giving loans to locallly owned buisness's and helping schools) cant happen because the people who move into the community have no kids or have the only intrest in making a quick buck.
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Old 05-19-2007, 10:33 AM
 
1,446 posts, read 4,413,697 times
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Economics and race are tied together so even if you do not state "white" we know what and whom you are speaking about. Your ancestors are not black and have a very different history here in America. Everything is stacked against the Black and Brown people who want to remain in those "up and coming" areas of town and hopefully when they are displaced they will be able to find something else they can afford. If not hopefully they can relocate out of the NY area and find a new life elsewhere. Hard working people(unlike criminals) will adjust to new circumstances-maybe not happily but they deal as most responsible people do.
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Old 05-19-2007, 11:02 AM
 
433 posts, read 1,386,717 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyJerzyKidUNO View Post
I never said its other peoples fault that blacks are commiting crimes. People who choose to break the law are fully responsible and have no right to blame others. I knwo thiss. Im white and grew up in a town thats mostly black and hispanic. I was always being shut down for supposivley "Keeping the black man down". Ofcaurse thats rediculous because I or my ancestors never did anything. My ancestors (jewish russains) were in the same predicaments. I do agree that blacks tend to blame other people for their condition(not all blacks mind you). What im trying to get at is that there are ways to make poor areas prosper without raising rents. Things like bankloans to locally owned buisnesses or having more connection between parents in the schools and etc. However there is no denying that this huge influx of upperclass people who's main purpose living in bad neigborhoods is to fix up houses and sell them for higher prices is not helping these people who live there. Obviously this is not the only problem. But because it is a problem things like i stated before (giving loans to locallly owned buisness's and helping schools) cant happen because the people who move into the community have no kids or have the only intrest in making a quick buck.

Well, As a white person, you seem like a cool dude. But don't ever lose sight of why the ghetto is the way it is in the first place. For the record, I'm Italian and Black, so "race" is something I know well. Should poor people be "forced out", no. But they shouldn't have a stranglehold either. The truth is, better oppertunites lie out west and down south for low-income people.


To be honest, if Harlem was filled with black investment bankers and doctors, I would jump for joy. So it doesn't have to be about race. 75% of blacks have achieved middle class status, who's talking about them? As for better schools and neighborhood shops, it's about money my friend. You make it seem like the newcomers don't shop in the shops and pay taxes. They do. And every little bit helps.
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Old 05-19-2007, 11:05 AM
 
433 posts, read 1,386,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyntmac View Post
Economics and race are tied together so even if you do not state "white" we know what and whom you are speaking about.

If a white person said this, there would be a ****storm. Economics and race don't tie together that much. I don't see Chinese ghettos? How about those wealthy blacks in St Albans?
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Old 05-19-2007, 11:17 AM
 
1,446 posts, read 4,413,697 times
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You are dreaming. Which version of history did you learn in school? LOL....
Chinese people like Italians and Germans have their own history in the US.
You don't need to explain that there are successful people of every race.
There are working class people who strive just as hard every day.
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