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Unread 06-03-2009, 06:32 PM
 
86 posts, read 144,933 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Wishes View Post
I saw the link, and $472,000 to purchase a home in the SOUTH BRONX? What do they do, completely fortress it off from the rest of the of neighborhood? I mean there are safer places even here in the tri-state area where houses (yes houses!) cost this or just a little bit more.....and someone making $118K shouldn't need the Housing Dept. to get a home (but I am not saying that that salary makes you RICH here, far from it).

Almost sounds like they're trying to over-gentrify the neighborhood......don't take this wrong and I don't want to start flames but one problem with all of these arguments about that there are affordable neighborhoods in NYC is that many of them are not very safe in my view. I think the South Bronx is a lot better than it was in the 70's and I tout on many forums how I think people shouldn't be as scared of it as they are but I still can't imagine a white, middle-aged female being comfortable (or perhaps even safe) coming home on the 2, 5, or 6 train in Melrose and comfortably walking from there to her home at night.
thank you , well said. but i will add that even as a young black aged female i would not feel safe doing that.
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Unread 06-03-2009, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Live in NY State, (sometimes) work in CT
6,280 posts, read 7,122,814 times
Reputation: 2143
Rather than try to put a bunch of quotes on here:

Re: Park Slope median income vs. average housing costs - As in a lot of other neighborhoods with this kind of discrepency, what this means is you have a lot of rent-controlled people in the neighborhood. Once they are gone, the middle class will be gone. This also explains Manhattan's income vs. housing, all the people in rent control (throughout, even now), section 8 and projects (northern Manhattan, though less of an area than 30 or 40 years ago) bring the average down and explains the discrepency.

It is very easy to be very rich or very poor in NYC (I read that one of the congressional districts in the bronx has the lowest avg. income of any in the nation), but not in between.

Re: Staten Island being the only middle class area of the 5 boros - I'm guessing that you are assuming a neighborhood isn't middle class if it's near 100% minority, I can tell you that's not true every minority neighborhood is not "the ghetto". That said, see my point about the South Bronx though at the end of page 4 of this thread (i.e. would say a young or middle-age white female on a middle class income be safe in the "middle class" nabes of NY......and regarding jiggly's post, agreed.....I'm a middle aged white guy who lives in a neighborhood that's about 70% black and I have many black neighbors who say the same thing, many of whom are teachers and cops in the So Bronx and would never live there......just so you know where it's coming from). And from what I've seen on housing prices, I'm not sure SI is middle class anyway anymore for a new homebuyer, it's just that the middle class people bought homes there when they were cheap (i.e. 60s, 70s, maybe early 80s) and never moved.

Re manufacturing: I think NY was once big in manufacturing because of it's sheer size as a city, but I'd hardly call it the manufacturing capital of America in any age (except maybe in publishing and the garment industry......maybe it was the "light manufacturing" capital as opposed to heavy industry). As a share of the workforce, the nearby NJ areas were probably more of a manufacturing area than NYC. I think historically the manufacturing capital was probably the stretch from western PA through OH, MI, IN into Chicago and Milwaukee.

Last edited by 7 Wishes; 06-03-2009 at 06:37 PM.. Reason: To bold and italicize
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Unread 06-03-2009, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Live in NY State, (sometimes) work in CT
6,280 posts, read 7,122,814 times
Reputation: 2143
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglypuff View Post
thank you , well said. but i will add that even as a young black aged female i would not feel safe doing that.
I'm going to flip this as well, I think except for St. George near the Ferry, I think (though much much safer crime-wise than the South Bronx) that a young minority (in this case male or female) would probably not feel comfortable (and perhaps safe) in Staten Island. But I won't explain that one there's tons of forums that beat that issue to death.....
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Unread 06-03-2009, 06:47 PM
 
Location: northeast
567 posts, read 873,145 times
Reputation: 139
what? none of you (bluedog and analy something) can show me proof that the middle class are staying/coming here so you just ignore that post right. on my last post i posted like 6 links supporting my claim. what have you two done to prove nyc isn't losing middle class except post about income levels like it reflects middle class population loss.

EDIT: after waiting for almost an hour for one of you to respond and give me a link proving nyc isn't losing middle class, i think its safe to assume you two don't have one. and seeing as how this is a FACT BASED question and isn't subjective in anyway, maybe you shouldn't post if you are unaware of the facts. the OP asked "are the middle class being pushed out (i.e leaving)?" where does s/he ask for your opinions? regardless if you think nabes are more middle class than before, that is YOUR OPINION and frankly, the facts don't agree with you.

Last edited by GDK94; 06-03-2009 at 07:42 PM..
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Unread 06-03-2009, 07:28 PM
 
502 posts, read 1,390,299 times
Reputation: 190
Well, I think we should define what is really middle class in NYC. A recent article in the NYT says that you need 125k-150k to be considered middle class in this neighborhood. Everyone else is working class.

So at 125k-150k, some of those people do stay here and live well enough for a few years in the city. But most likely, they want to live in a home in an established and middle class neighborhood so they often move to the suburbs or purchase a smaller home in a nice area---think UWS/UES.

Anyone lower than 100k is working class in this town. Not my opinion, just the pure economics of this town. And at that price point, you are most likely not going to be able to afford to own anything here larger than a 1 bedroom. A 2 bedroom can be obtained in a less established or "up and coming" area---read: buy at your own risk.

The reality is that most people who think that are even middle class in this town are really not. And so yes, the middle class and the working class are fleeing out of this city. It's just not logical to purchase or live in an unsafe area and pay top dollar just to say you live in this city. It's not and many people see this.
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Unread 06-03-2009, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
6,140 posts, read 9,532,727 times
Reputation: 3739
I did read them all but most of them are based on the same single report put out by The Center for an Urban Future.Problem is they never define middle class.It goes on about the fleeing middle class but leaves it up to one's imagination what they mean.
One of the links is about people with families leaving the city and talking about the possibility of the city becoming simultaneously older and younger with less families but doesn't really address the class issue.Do you think you must be part of a nuclear family to qualify as middle class?
The final one talks about a shrinking black population but again doesn't address the class issue .I have heard anecdotal reports that it is actually the poor blacks that are being pushed out of the city because of less section 8 housing,less low income housing and the section 8 people being "encouraged " to move to Pennsylvania and Poughkeepsie,etc. So maybe the shrinking black population is from a shrinking lower class in the city.I really don't know.

What do you define as middle class ? Maybe that would help me/us to understand your point.During the presidential campaign and the discussion about "middle class" tax relief they all seemed to indicate that anything under $200,000 for a household income was middle class.Do you think that ?
Maybe "middle class" to you is more of a state of mind than an income thing.

I would be interested to learn more about The Center for an Urban Future ,who funds it and who is in their "think tank" to try to figure out what their agenda is.
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Unread 06-03-2009, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
6,140 posts, read 9,532,727 times
Reputation: 3739
Quote:
Originally Posted by GDK94 View Post
what? none of you (bluedog and analy something) can show me proof that the middle class are staying/coming here so you just ignore that post right. on my last post i posted like 6 links supporting my claim. what have you two done to prove nyc isn't losing middle class except post about income levels like it reflects middle class population loss.

EDIT: after waiting for almost an hour for one of you to respond and give me a link proving nyc isn't losing middle class, i think its safe to assume you two don't have one. and seeing as how this is a FACT BASED question and isn't subjective in anyway, maybe you shouldn't post if you are unaware of the facts. the OP asked "are the middle class being pushed out (i.e leaving)?" where does s/he ask for your opinions? regardless if you think nabes are more middle class than before, you have no proof whatsoever.
A succession of articles based on a single "report" by a think tank are not necessarily facts.Think tanks usually manipulate "facts" to fit their own agenda.
I think you are trying to address too many issues here at once. The original question was whether middle class people are "being pushed out".Now you are bringing in "leaving".Why would middle class people in rent stabilized apartments or apartments/houses that they have owned for years leave ? It makes no sense .Their housing expenses are already lower than they might be anywhere.
The real problem is probably that it is getting more and more difficult for "middle class" people to move into or get established in the city at all but that is not the same as being "pushed out" or "leaving.
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Unread 06-03-2009, 08:04 PM
 
Location: northeast
567 posts, read 873,145 times
Reputation: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog2 View Post
A succession of articles based on a single "report" by a think tank are not necessarily facts.Think tanks usually manipulate "facts" to fit their own agenda.
what agenda could they possibly have? ok, forget the articles. can you honestly say that there are more middle class in NYC today than 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago? and do you really believe that middle class are returning to the city?

Quote:
the original question was whether middle class people are "being pushed out".Now you are bringing in "leaving".
i put "i.e leaving" in parenthesis as being "pushed out" sounds ridiculous as no one is forcing the middle class to leave.

Quote:
Why would middle class people in rent stabilized apartments or apartments/houses that they have owned for years leave ?
not everyone has stabilized rent and i never said people who do are leaving. but stabilized rent or not, the city would still be expensive.
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Unread 06-03-2009, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Bay Ridge, NY
1,916 posts, read 4,962,825 times
Reputation: 514
Quote:
Originally Posted by GDK94;9124282=
i put "i.e leaving" in parenthesis as being "pushed out" sounds ridiculous as no one is forcing the middle class to leave.
well, the thread is about people being pushed out... and that's what we're saying. no one is being pushed out. it seems like we're not arguing the same thing here, heh. no doubt some of the middle class is leaving, as there are lots of cheaper places around. mainly, my point was that there ARE still a lot of middle class areas, and they can still afford to live here if they wanted, which is being vehemently denied by certain others..
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Unread 06-03-2009, 08:10 PM
 
Location: northeast
567 posts, read 873,145 times
Reputation: 139
here are some definitions of middle class:

Quote:
The middle class, in colloquial usage, consists of those who have some economic independence but not a great deal of social influence or power. The term often encompasses merchants and professionals, academics, bureaucrats, and some farmers and skilled workers.
Quote:
A social and economic class lying above the working class and below the upper class; The groups in society composed of professionals, semi-professionals, and lower-to-middle managerial level workers
Quote:
occupying a position between the upper class and the working class; characteristic of the middle class(es); reflective of that class's values and aspirations. Commonly associated with a desire for social respectability and an emphasis on family values and education
Quote:
A group of people that included traders, merchants and others who were economically between the poor and the very rich that emerged during the Renaissance.
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