Are middle class residents being pushed out of NYC? (Union: insurance, house)

[GDK94]

Originally Posted by analyticalkeys

well, the thread is about people being pushed out... and that's what we're saying. no one is being pushed out.

it sounded like you were arguing against me saying the middle class was leaving. thanks for clarifying though.

my point was that there ARE still a lot of middle class areas, and they can still afford to live here if they wanted, which is being vehemently denied by certain others..

of course they can "afford" it. technically, a working class person making $35,000 can afford to rent and live in the UWS. but my point is, those people won't have as much economic freedom (eating out all the time, going to the theatre, buying a car etc) as they would in other metropolitan areas for the same price. so why stay? nyc has alot of great things but who cares if you cant do/enjoy them as often as you can somewhere else.

[bluedog2]

I never said the city wasn't expensive and I never said there are more middle class in NY than any time before. For one thing,I couldn't even determine that one way or the other without knowing exactly what definition of middle class we are working with and applying it to whatever time period we are talking about.
My argument has consistently been with the idea that some amorphous "middle class" is being"pushed out" or fleeing.I think it is possible that there are less "middle class" people than in prior times but if so it probably has more to do with attrition than with anyone being "pushed out "or leaving.On a personal level,I can tell you that almost all of the people I have known in my 36 years here are still here and have been living in the same apartments for 20 or 30 years.They don't feel squeezed or pushed and they have no intentions of leaving.
Re the possible agenda of the think tank : I don't know for sure that they have one but I have learned to be very careful about accepting "reports"...especially from "think tanks" as facts. I like to look and see who is behind them and learn more before I accept them. Would it change your opinion of that report if you found out that Dick Cheney was a founder or "scholar" at that think tank ? I hope it would.And it is really sad that any single report like that gets picked up immediately by countless media outlets and printed with their own little spin and then accepted as fact because it it "widely published". Call me skeptical.

[bluedog2]

Originally Posted by GDK94

here are some definitions of middle class:

These definitions just show how absurd the whole notion is because if you combine elements of all the definitions it includes everyone who makes from just above poverty level and up into hundreds of thousands of dollars.Merchants,professionals etc,etc.They encompass over 90% of the population.One of them even says "between the poor and very rich"

[GDK94]

Originally Posted by bluedog2

These definitions just show how absurd the whole notion is because if you combine elements of all the definitions it includes everyone who makes from just above poverty level and up into hundreds of thousands of dollars.Merchants,professionals etc,etc.They encompass over 90% of the population.One of them even says "between the poor and very rich"

lol, ok lets just use the usa's per capita of $46,000 then since a solid definition of middle class doesn't seem to exist. anyone making between $46,000 and $86,000 is, IMO, middle class now. since anyone making below seems lower middle class and anyone making above that seems upper middle class.

[UpstaterInBklyn]

The definition of "Middle Class" is the crux of this whole argument.

Here is a really interesting factoid - over 90% of people consider themselves "Middle Class" regardless of their actual income!

An April 2007 poll by CBS News found that of 994 adults surveyed only 2 percent said they were "upper class," and 7 percent said they were "lower class." In another poll, taken by Gallup/USA Today in May 2006, 1 percent said they were "upper class," and 6 percent said they were "lower class." Interestingly, since 12.3 percent of Americans were living below the official federal poverty level in 2006, these poll findings suggest many who are officially poor still consider themselves to be "middle class" or "working class."

Here is the source (it's a very interesting article)

So... what this proves is that "middle class" is largely a matter of perception.

And perception is key.

In NYC a comfortable middle class existence might be living in a 2 bedroom 800 square foot apartment with air conditioners in the windows and no car. In Houston, the same definition would require a 3 bedroom 2000 square foot house with central air and 2 cars in the driveway. Neither existence is more affluent than the other because in NYC, a car and central air are not necessities, but in Houston they are. Our hypothetical teacher with 8 years experience might lead either one of those existences and be content.

Earlier in this thread SoBroGuy referenced a 1950s definition of "middle class" that basically said you were middle class if you had a roof over your head and three meals a day in your belly. This is true. Mass affluence has shifted the generally accepted definition of "middle class" to mean more square feet, more bedrooms, cars, a bedroom for every child and central air. Many people in this country consider these the minimum criteria for a middle class existence.

It is this perception, I think, that is causing the out-migration of native-born "middle class" NYers to other parts of the country. A lot of middle income (I won't say "middle class") native born NYers have the same desire for more quintessential "middle class" existence by today's standards and since the NYC suburbs are out reach financially, they are leaving NYC by the thousands to buy themselves this dream.

[GDK94]

UpstaterInBklyn, thats interesting, but theres a minor problem. if they judge who's middle class by if someone thinks their middle class, as most people do, shouldn't the percentage of "middle class" reflect that of which the study found? and in turn the percentage of middle class should be higher than 20%?

also, i read somewhere that "middle class" in NYC is $100,000, but if only 5% of NYC's population makes that much, then shouldn't the percentage of middle class be lower than 20%?

also, as sobro may be right in the definition of middle class in the 50's, well what about the 80's and 90's? i'm sure 20 and 30 years later, the definition hasn't changed as much, but why does it still show decreases?

and since working class and upper middle class are sometimes included with the middle class population, doesn't that translate into all 3 socioeconomic classes decreasing in prevalence?

[UpstaterInBklyn]

I don't subscribe to the notion that the "middle class" is being "pushed out" of NYC.

I DO believe, because census bureau statistics prove it, that middle income native born NYers are leaving on their own because they can get better housing and better schools for less money elsewhere in the country.

I think the idea that the "middle class is being forced from NYC" really means that things like larger living spaces and good schools are less obtainable in NYC as they are in other areas, but this has always been in the case. A generation ago, a family of four might lead a "middle class" existence in a two bedroom apartment with the kids going to so-so public schools and sharing a small bedroom. When I was a kid, I shared an 8X10 foot bedroom with my older brother, but we considered ourselves "middle class" nonetheless. Today, that existence, while still "middle class" (certainly not "poor") is considered undesirable, and in many cases, unacceptable for a modern family.

There is another thread in this forum where the poster is asking if he can get newer 3BR condo or coop with good schools and a 1 hour commute anywhere in the NYC metro area for less than $500K. The consensus is "no". Could that person buy a 12-foot wide 50-year old semi-attached house in Canarsie for less than $500K? Yes. Would living in that house be considered "middle class"? Absolutely. Is it desirable? For many families, No.

[Carantini]

Yeah theyre being pushed out, ever since that show "friends", every one wants to live in nyc. before it was just native new yorkers, now its the opposite, ny is falling off.

[7 Wishes]

Originally Posted by UpstaterInBklyn

I don't subscribe to the notion that the "middle class" is being "pushed out" of NYC.

I DO believe, because census bureau statistics prove it, that middle income native born NYers are leaving on their own because they can get better housing and better schools for less money elsewhere in the country.

I think the idea that the "middle class is being forced from NYC" really means that things like larger living spaces and good schools are less obtainable in NYC as they are in other areas, but this has always been in the case. A generation ago, a family of four might lead a "middle class" existence in a two bedroom apartment with the kids going to so-so public schools and sharing a small bedroom. When I was a kid, I shared an 8X10 foot bedroom with my older brother, but we considered ourselves "middle class" nonetheless. Today, that existence, while still "middle class" (certainly not "poor") is considered undesirable, and in many cases, unacceptable for a modern family.

There is another thread in this forum where the poster is asking if he can get newer 3BR condo or coop with good schools and a 1 hour commute anywhere in the NYC metro area for less than $500K. The consensus is "no". Could that person buy a 12-foot wide 50-year old semi-attached house in Canarsie for less than $500K? Yes. Would living in that house be considered "middle class"? Absolutely. Is it desirable? For many families, No.

Some interesting thoughts about your post:

1) One thing about metro NYC is that in many other areas, those desparate for housing can live in a "trailer park". This essentially doesn't exist here (there was a small one in Croton-on-Hudson in Westchester County I passed on my old commute, next nearest ones I know of are in northern Putnam County and Dutchess County upstate). That factors into the housing equation.

2) You make a good point about housing. I live in a very small (900 sq. ft.) 2 bedroom condo and my kids (7 yo son and 5 yo daughter) still share their bedroom. While I hope to one day live in slightly bigger digs so they can at least have their own rooms, however small (mainly because they are of opposite sex, otherwise they'd probably share a room) I know too many people obsessed with not only "needing" 4 or 5 BR houses they can never really afford, but wanting them to be like 3000 SF. Yes 3000!

When the day comes that we want a slightly bigger place (or move out of the area.....my upcoming training class may lead to a position that will result in a slight relocation), we may actually still stick with a condo (or small townhouse) to have less of the maintenance headaches some of our big house-owning friends have in addition to the mere cost of there home.

3) I think a lot of the obsession with big houses for families is a white thing. Many of the neighborhoods with smaller houses you talk about are either heavily black or Hispanic or have new immigrants like Indians, Koreans, etc. that are making up the bulk of NYC's "middle class" now (in addition to blacks/hispanics who are nurses, teachers, cops, fire, etc.). Some of the "new immigrants" do move on to the big houses as well if their businesses, etc. become hugely successful but I see in most ethnic/racial minorities a bigger realism involving housing than in most white families (again, exceptions in both cases, but the general trend I see).

[dhanu86]

Originally Posted by Carantini

Yeah theyre being pushed out, ever since that show "friends", every one wants to live in nyc. before it was just native new yorkers, now its the opposite, ny is falling off.

Ha. I hate that show, I can watch a whole series and not crack a single smile.

By middle-class I meant average, not ghetto with a screwed up family Nor well established family who has put in a lifetime of hard work and owns this or that on this block since 1986.

It seems like people in NYC (or outside) are only interested in cocktails and fantasy books and starbucks and films and clubbin and clothes and seinfield and school and ghetto fabulous or being hip.

What has happend to the organic selfless honest fun-loving dignified attitude and approach to life?