Family of 7...about $75K a year (New York, York: homes, neighborhood, public schools)

[jcoltrane]

Originally Posted by MrMcCoySays

No, I think everyone except you understood that my post was a hypothetical scenario just for leisure interest. I have no kids, make less than 20K a year and have absolutely NO desire to move to New York (no offense). Texas is anything but lame and I love living here.

Even if I were the father of 5 kids making 75K, I would never do something so brainless as to pack up the family and just simply move to Nyc. Not unless of course I was offered a job up there (which wouldn't be likely for someone with a job paying only five figures).

Don't let these people get to you, too many in this forum have a reading deficiency!

To your point,

Regarding family size, it is not common to encounter families of such size here in the NY metro tri-state area (including the 5 boroughs and surrounding suburbs). Culturally, socially, politically, with some exception, its just not done. Of course, we are talking the standard, stereotypical unblended family, consisting of mother, father and children. 1 to 2 is, generally, average with 3 max. Anything more and people start to think your nuts or (the exceptions): a) your Catholic (and Irish); or, can't think of any other. (JFYI, there are an extra-ordinary number of (non-Hispanic/Latin Catholics) in the area, mostly Irish and Italian.

Here, I'll give you an example,

I have a friend from a family of 8 children. The father was a professional, worked for the City; stay-at-home mother. This was in the late 70s. They lived in an apt. in Queens. The only house they could afford was on Staten Island, a fixer upper. The family despite having a college educated father, earning a reasonable salary and being white, they grew up relatively poor. At times having to resort to Food Stamps to get by; drank powered milk (remember that stuff!); wore hand-me-downs, and second-hand clothes. Never owned a car. McDonalds, Pizza, soda, candy, etc. were a special treat, and the kids NEVER had their own money.

From a middle class perspective that's a pretty weird way to live.

Contrastingly, my family of 3; father was not college educated, black (and run out of Georgia ahead of the lynch mob), stay-at-home mom, and me. My father was a hustling truck driver, with a mom and pop business. I grew up in a upper middle class environment with most of the things a disciplined child of the era could have. I always had money, for the things a kid wants daily, and dad drove a Cadillac.

The lesson here is that then and now, its just the same. A large family in NYC regulates themselves to a "poor" life, financially, socially, as well as culturally (given this being NYC).

Growing up, on my block with 36+ families, only 3 families had 4 or more children; and, I'd wager my block was above the average. One of the families had just 4 and were non-practicing catholics. The other two families were practicing catholics. Interestingly, none of the non-catholic families had more than 2 children.

I had a great childhood, my friend, on the other hand had a pretty miserable childhood, not the least of which was the non-stop hassle the family received from the neighborhood kids and schoolmates. NY is NOT the place to be poor and white!!

One last note, not only are housing costs above the norm here in NYC, but also, clothing costs! Given NYC as the fashion capital, in general, people here spend a disproportionate amount on clothing. Kids, specifically, need to be "in fashion", or they're setup for ridicule.

That was the 70s, today, its virtually the same. I'd say literally, except that, today, my friend's family wouldn't find an affordable house anywhere! They'd be like many middle-class families here, moving to North Carolina, Georgia, or Florida---that's IF they could manage the money to make the move.

[Americanboy]

Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon

Actually, a family of seven with a $75,000 annual income qualifies for public housing in New York City.

This is what's wrong with NY.

Public Housing should be demolished.

[jcoltrane]

Originally Posted by MrMcCoySays

Also, I probably should've specified. While a family of 7/$75K a year IS middle class in urban Texas, they're hardly leading "the good life." For one, the neighborhood they live in will barely qualify as the suburbs as crime and maybe even gangs in their area won't be uncommon, it will likely be a minority-majority area, they'll probably share subdivisions with some renters/section 8, and since they can't afford private school their children will likely be attending the area public school that's semi-crowded with less-than-qualified teachers. If their baby is going to a great college, they're going to get there by playing football, working their tail off for those academic scholarships/grants, or holding down a part-time job.

They will be fortunate and nowhere near poor, but any luxuries they want will have to come with big sacrifices. The family car (that was used when bought) will have to last them atleast 8 or 9, family vacations won't be anywhere out of the country and will only be every few years,

Of course there are exceptions but this would be the average situation.

I've got a question. In your example, is your family "white"?

Surprised to find life that tough even in Texas.

In NYC, race would make a real difference in terms of quality of life. Given that whites, generally, find life in and among blacks and other minorities uncomfortable. Considering the limitations, a black family actually has more options (living life at the edge).

For example, here there really aren't any "minority-majority area(s)" where poor whites and blacks mix/live. Also, despite comments to the contrary, there are neighborhoods that are, black, middle-class, and even upper middle-class which are relatively safe and livable. So, a black family of 7, given they have no other issues except "money", could possibly find a decent "crack of life" to live.

While a similar white family, while probably having more or better, overall life, options would be hard-pressed in finding a decent affordable safe place to live. I don't think such exist here, and living in a minority area isn't a reality. Though, all the areas, similar to what I described above, do have some "leftover" whites (though I suspect not families of 7).

In any event, life, as you describe it would be virtually the same, with just a couple of exceptions. Here, the family would be "poor", not "near poor". Gangs, as you may envision them (LA type), don't exist here. Suburbs are overwhelmingly white. Very few "minority-majority areas" found (meaning race-mixed areas, not including gentrification). Nothing like Detroit's "3 Mile Road".

Oh, I just realized where our "white" family lives. The North Fork of Long Island! I'll refrain from naming any specific towns. This is a very long distance from Manhattan and the five boroughs. Staten Island would be the more likely place, but values have risen so much, and demand so great to live in proximity to Manhattan that I don't think our family could afford there, unless native to the island.

and since the parents likely don't "come from money" their working class values, mannerisms, and lifestyle will be passed down to their children.

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

Realize this is New York! So, "come from money" and "working class" may have somewhat different connotations. This is the place OF money, we have real people who come from REAL money with names from history books; LOTS of them. They are not abstract. Also, here, we have school custodians who make over $100K, with waterfront homes and boats! This is the case for LOTS of "working class". Here there are a HOST of "working class" jobs which pay in excess of $75K, and even in excess of $100K. Getting these jobs isn't simple nor easy. Think nepotism!

Whatever the case, I didn't think of our little hypothetical family as suffering from any social difficiencies other than poor luck with condemns! ) or, maybe being Catholic, or just loves kids. Having too many kids (or any) is the number one financial mistake people make.

[jcoltrane]

Originally Posted by MrMcCoySays

I thought so. I assume the type of neighborhood youre talking about is one of those tree-lined streets with a WALL of those old short brownstone looking apartment buildings that i've seen in pictures and on television. If so, these type of communities are basically the "New York version" of the average working/middle class KB Home subdivision down South. And the lifestyles seem surprisingly similar.

I doubt, lebleu a born and bred NYer, and consequently is talking from a (nice way to put it) newbie experience of a naive single trying to live life as a TV show (Seinfeld, Friends, SexNCity).

A white "family" does not and could not live as he suggests. Where would the kids go to school? They couldn't go to school, w/o coming home suicidal maniacs!

The basics of what he says is true, the reality of it is NOT. "Sounds good on paper" type thing.

WHAT is a "KB Home subdivision"? To a true NYer you're talking a foreign language!

It's not easy to equate Texas with NYC. Those "short looking" buildings are Brownstone town homes; and, I strongly suspect cannot be equated with anything KB Homes might build. Brownstones are neither "average" nor "working/middle" class. All were built around the turn of the 20th century, and most are over 100 years old, and have very finely crafted interiors.

Brownstones are the turn-of-the-century and original version of attached townhomes (they have modern townhomes in your area don't they?). The name is taken from the stone which faces the building. Some are faced with Limestone. A few are faced with brick. All are generally referred to as Brownstones or townhomes.. They were built as single family luxury homes back in the day. They are quite coveted for those who can afford to renovate them back into single family homes. Many were converted into apartments or rooming houses during the The Great Depression era. If you've watched "Sex In the City", Carey's apartment was in a Brownstone.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-y...ifference.html

[Viralmd]

What is wrong with brownstones? They're BEAUTIFUL and many of them have beautiful turn-of-the-century detail (like moldings and pocket doors) intact!

[newtoli]

OP is trying to equate a Brownstone with one of those suburban tract home developments, and it's not, in price nor quality. Middleclass families in NYC do not own brownstones.

[MrMcCoySays]

Originally Posted by jcoltrane

I've got a question. In your example, is your family "white"?

Surprised to find life that tough even in Texas.

In NYC, race would make a real difference in terms of quality of life. Given that whites, generally, find life in and among blacks and other minorities uncomfortable. Considering the limitations, a black family actually has more options (living life at the edge).

For example, here there really aren't any "minority-majority area(s)" where poor whites and blacks mix/live. Also, despite comments to the contrary, there are neighborhoods that are, black, middle-class, and even upper middle-class which are relatively safe and livable. So, a black family of 7, given they have no other issues except "money", could possibly find a decent "crack of life" to live.

While a similar white family, while probably having more or better, overall life, options would be hard-pressed in finding a decent affordable safe place to live. I don't think such exist here, and living in a minority area isn't a reality. Though, all the areas, similar to what I described above, do have some "leftover" whites (though I suspect not families of 7).

In any event, life, as you describe it would be virtually the same, with just a couple of exceptions. Here, the family would be "poor", not "near poor". Gangs, as you may envision them (LA type), don't exist here. Suburbs are overwhelmingly white. Very few "minority-majority areas" found (meaning race-mixed areas, not including gentrification). Nothing like Detroit's "3 Mile Road".

Oh, I just realized where our "white" family lives. The North Fork of Long Island! I'll refrain from naming any specific towns. This is a very long distance from Manhattan and the five boroughs. Staten Island would be the more likely place, but values have risen so much, and demand so great to live in proximity to Manhattan that I don't think our family could afford there, unless native to the island.

The family could be of any color, but I will admit that if they were white they probably would pack up and move to an affordable, far-out (almost rural) suburb. And simply put up with the horrible commute times into the city. On the other hand, it's not THAT uncommon in Texas to see middle class whites living amongst middle class minorities.

And the term "minority-majority" doesn't always suggest whites being sorely outnumbered. You might have a neighborhood that is 30% white, 30% black, 30% hispanic, and 10% Asian. While this area does count as being minority-majority, it still has a large and established white population.

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

Realize this is New York! So, "come from money" and "working class" may have somewhat different connotations. This is the place OF money, we have real people who come from REAL money with names from history books; LOTS of them. They are not abstract. Also, here, we have school custodians who make over $100K, with waterfront homes and boats! This is the case for LOTS of "working class". Here there are a HOST of "working class" jobs which pay in excess of $75K, and even in excess of $100K. Getting these jobs isn't simple nor easy. Think nepotism!

Whatever the case, I didn't think of our little hypothetical family as suffering from any social difficiencies other than poor luck with condemns! ) or, maybe being Catholic, or just loves kids. Having too many kids (or any) is the number one financial mistake people make.

This is probably one of the differences between Texas and NY you were speaking of.

What I meant is that, generally speaking, a family that comes from a longer line of educated, successful, higher-earning people is likely to have a different culture with different views and values than a family who comes from a long line of laborers and blue-collar workers. Even if the income isn't that different.

[MrMcCoySays]

Originally Posted by newtoli

OP is trying to equate a Brownstone with one of those suburban tract home developments, and it's not, in price nor quality. Middleclass families in NYC do not own brownstones.

No the OP isn't trying to equate the two. I said "short brownstone LOOKING apartment buildings". I don't know what they're called. And I wasn't even sure if I was talking about the right type of neighborhood anyway.

[MrMcCoySays]

Originally Posted by jcoltrane

I doubt, lebleu a born and bred NYer, and consequently is talking from a (nice way to put it) newbie experience of a naive single trying to live life as a TV show (Seinfeld, Friends, SexNCity).

A white "family" does not and could not live as he suggests. Where would the kids go to school? They couldn't go to school, w/o coming home suicidal maniacs!

The basics of what he says is true, the reality of it is NOT. "Sounds good on paper" type thing.

And if the family isn't white?

WHAT is a "KB Home subdivision"? To a true NYer you're talking a foreign language!

It's not easy to equate Texas with NYC. Those "short looking" buildings are Brownstone town homes; and, I strongly suspect cannot be equated with anything KB Homes might build. Brownstones are neither "average" nor "working/middle" class. All were built around the turn of the 20th century, and most are over 100 years old, and have very finely crafted interiors.

KB Homes is that generic builder of cookie-cutter homes you'll see throughout the Sunbelt. And I'm not trying to directly compare it to anything in New York. When I said "New York version" I thought that statement implied the idea that any building in NY would be of much greater value and craftsmanship. What seemed comparable was the set-up and community of the neighborhoods that lbleu described.

As for the brownstones, I don't think that's what I'm talking about. I wish I was able to post a picture of the type of NY neighborhood I'm thinking of that way you could correct me if I'm wrong.

[lebleu]

Originally Posted by jcoltrane

I doubt, lebleu a born and bred NYer, and consequently is talking from a (nice way to put it) newbie experience of a naive single trying to live life as a TV show (Seinfeld, Friends, SexNCity).

Why exactly would you label me as a "newbie" in NYC by what I said?

Here was my exact response to the OP:

"
A family of 7, making 75k a year, can certainly live in NYC. You can rent a small 3 BR/1 BA apartment (about $2,000 a month) in an "OK"/almost ghetto neighborhood in one of the outer boroughs. The public schools will be overcrowded and "ghetto," and most, if not all, of your neighbors will be minorities or recent immigrants.

You could probably afford an older car, and could only afford the minimum liability insurance. You will be shopping for bargains in the ghetto shopping areas and the hispanic supermarkets.
"

The OP responded by saying that it would like on those brownstones he sees on TV. I'd say it would be more like the ghetto six story buildings in the Bronx and Brooklyn that they never show on TV.