Leaving your NYC home - my personal questions about the diaspora (Boston: houses, neighborhoods)

[sol1111]

Originally Posted by Irish Eyes

In the meantime - what about a different neighborhood? Bay Ridge still has at least a few good years left.

Bay ridge has horrible trains to the city and is further out than where I am now, though its interesting to note that all of the places everyone who agrees with me are thinking of are at the edges of the boroughs. As I mentioned previously, the outerboroughs now seem to the the place of the poor, the rich, and the transplant who can't afford the city. On top of it, I'm a young single guy, Bay Ridge is for families, no?

Something no one has addressed yet is the supposed stereotypes of the LI suburbs. Is it really as bad as I described? On paper, all of the people who left NYC went there, so the answer should be as simple as move to where my people went, but I perceive (very important to note that its my perception, which I recognize may not be correct), all of these negativeness and I ask myself why I'd want to subject myself to it? Plus it doesn't help that two of my cousins who live in Great Neck (whos parents were from Bensonhurst and Borough Park) have the "Lawn Guyland" thing down to a tee.

[UpstaterInBklyn]

Originally Posted by sol1111

Something no one has addressed yet is the supposed stereotypes of the LI suburbs. Is it really as bad as I described? On paper, all of the people who left NYC went there, so the answer should be as simple as move to where my people went, but I perceive (very important to note that its my perception, which I recognize may not be correct), all of these negativeness and I ask myself why I'd want to subject myself to it? Plus it doesn't help that two of my cousins who live in Great Neck (whos parents were from Bensonhurst and Borough Park) have the "Lawn Guyland" thing down to a tee.

Suburban communities have a social fabric that is just as strong and vibrant as a traditional urban neighborhood. Kids play together, parents socialize and people in the neighborhood generally know each other well. Ask anyone who grew up in the burbs and they would probably agree. Maybe one difference is that suburban family social lives tend to revolve around more organized activities and institutions like schools, churches, scout troops, little leagues, etc., so there isn't as much "in the street" type of activity.

For a single person, or a couple without children, the suburbs can be isolating because people's social lives are centered around childrens' activities, and this is how adult friendships form. It is hard to get to know people if you don't have kids.

[bluedog2]

Originally Posted by sol1111

Thats just the thing - it might have been an "ethnic ghetto" (a multi ethnic ghetto, really), but it belonged to everyone - the multi ethnic-ness is what made it special, at least for me, even though I was part of the majority.

If you really grew up in a multi ethnic ghetto you were very lucky. I don't think that's the norm. I didn't grow up in NY but I grew up in an ethnic ghetto ( Irish) in Boston and it was very closed to everyone else . The Italians had their neighborhoods,the Jews had theirs,the blacks had theirs,etc,etc.There wasn't much mixing and there would be fights when outsiders came in.Everyone stuck to their own neighborhood and defended their turf.

I can't imagine that NY or any other city was much different.I have been living here ( NY) for 35 years and I always thought it was the same.I live in The Bronx now and as far as I can tell the remnants are still here.Woodlawn is very ,very Irish and I don't think they really welcome outsiders.Morris Park is very Italian and it is the same there.Not like it was back in the 50's and 60's because there has been more blending but they are still known as either Irish or Italian.If your skin is dark they look at you suspiciously and might not rent to you.

People love to forget that there were racial and ethnic gangs in all the cities not that long ago fighting to keep "others" out of their neighborhoods just because they were different.

My parents totally freaked out when they found out that my sister was dating and got engaged to an Italian.The fighting and screaming was unbelievable.They threatened to disown her.This too was common not that long ago.

[makossa]

Originally Posted by Irish Eyes

Bay Ridge still has at least a few good years left.

I hope so!!!

[makossa]

Originally Posted by sol1111

Bay ridge has horrible

EXCUSE ME

Originally Posted by sol1111

On top of it, I'm a young single guy, Bay Ridge is for families, no?

NO NO NO not just for families!!! As I will agree, it isn't a bad place (IMO) to raise a family, but the club scene here (which I am far removed) is extremely lively at least on week ends.

Seriously, maybe you should hang and explore here a bit. I think you may be surprised. It may be possibly that long and lazy R train is a part of what is keeping BR genuine and un-genderified, for now anyway.

I agree the train can be frustraiting, but IMO it's a small trade off for the rest. It's one of a few areas left that feels like "old school" Brooklyn.

[TigerLily24]

I lived in several Brooklyn neighborhoods, last was the area you grew up in (near Ocean and Ave U.) All were very diverse and people were generally friendly. We moved to NJ in 1998 for many of the reasons you listed - didn't want my son to attend middle/hs in that area (class sizes too large, etc.), the condition of the area was quickly deterioriating (streets were always dirty, the subway more and more unreliable) and the people moving in tended to keep to themselves, there was less and less of a 'neighborhood' feel.
I already worked in NJ and as I became more familiar with Bergen County, it just offered more of what we wanted for our family. Your impression of NJ/LI is very biased. Children do play outside in those places, they have large back yards, clean parks, municipal pools, olympic-size ice skating facilities, wonderful libraries and yes, some towns even have actual 'downtowns.' Kids can go to summer camp for a fraction of what it costs in Brooklyn (I know my son did), play outside in school yards, go to football games on fall weekends.

None of my children, all now grown, stayed in or moved back to Brooklyn - they live in CO, NC, IL, NJ and NM (where I am now). While they remember it fondly, none of them want to raise their children there.

[NewYorkBorn]

Originally Posted by sol1111

Hey all. I noticed a lot of people answering the questions on this site tend to be people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, so some have a question for you guys about the places you grew up in and what you might have left behind.

First, a little background: I am 28 years old (born 1981) and lived my entire life in Sheepshead Bay \ Kings Highway section of Brooklyn. I was a regular middle class kid, had friends that were Irish, Italian, Jewish (like myself, only mildly observant), Black, Spanish etc - it didn't really matter to me. I remember playing basketball with Bangladeshi kids.

Some time around the early to mid nineties, things started to change. Many families started leaving for Jersey, Long Island, etc. and now, the neighborhood is mainly Chinese, Russian, remnants of the families like my own (namely, the parents) who stayed, and old folks. I have nothing against any of these groups e, but it feels like my home, the place where I and countless other middle class families grew up in, is gone. It feels like an ethnic ghetto now, due to the majority population seeming to be Russian and Chinese, which is only exacerbated by the fact that they seem to stick to their own kind.

Question 1: Why did you guys all leave New York City? An answer I hear frequently are the schools, its not safe, etc. but anyone who knows my neighborhood knows that it was never considered a "bad" neighborhood by any stretch of the imagination.

Question 2: If you didn't leave, where are your children, the people my age, go? A lot of time given to the hipsters coming TO Brooklyn or the Long Island kids living in the city, but what about the people like me? Brooklyn isn't some fantasy place like midwesterners think it is to us, and we all aren't able to afford the city. I have no idea where to meet people of similar background to myself.

Question 3: Is Long Island \ Jersey really that much better? I loved where I grew up, everything was close by, you could see kids playing in the streets and parents hanging out outside. Its all gone now here, but I get the impression it never even existed in LI\NJ. Images of those places are the snobs, the guidos, the blandness, the infidelity, the hollow pursuit of money and so forth. Am I just stereotyping?

Question 4: Do you think your kids would look back on their lives in Long Island the way you look back with fondness about your New York City neighborhood?

I understand that New York City has always been a place of ethnic succession, and that's all well and good, but doesn't give me my home back. It seems like I either accept being forced out, or stay here and feel culturally isolated. People talk a lot about gentrification "destroying the original feel of neighborhoods", but isn't that what happened to mine?

Finally, I don't mean to offend anyone with anything I've said, I'm really just looking for answers. Comments appreciated.

I am 36 years old, was born and raised in downtown Brooklyn. I left NYC 2 years ago because homeownership became very important to me. I saw that people spend a ton of money in NYC for mediocre neighborhoods and small apartments and get very little for their hard earned dollars. Besides that the quality of living is so much better in other places. Believe me when people visit me here they rarely want to go back to New York. Forget New Jersey, Long Island...........I headed south (South Carolina) and I do not regret it. My mother, grandmother and brother are all still in NYC...........each time I visit them I remember why I left NYC.

NYC is becoming a city where only the wealthy will be able to afford to live there.

[sol1111]

Originally Posted by UpstaterInBklyn

For a single person, or a couple without children, the suburbs can be isolating because people's social lives are centered around childrens' activities, and this is how adult friendships form. It is hard to get to know people if you don't have kids.

This is exactly why I asked where the kids I grew up with have gone. People in our generation aren't getting married nearly as young as the previous, so where are they and what are they doing?

Originally Posted by bluedog2

If you really grew up in a multi ethnic ghetto you were very lucky. I don't think that's the norm. I didn't grow up in NY but I grew up in an ethnic ghetto ( Irish) in Boston and it was very closed to everyone else . The Italians had their neighborhoods,the Jews had theirs,the blacks had theirs,etc,etc.There wasn't much mixing and there would be fights when outsiders came in.Everyone stuck to their own neighborhood and defended their turf.

To be honest, for a lot of where I grew up was like that too, but the difference is that "neighborhoods" of ethnicities really only lasted 5 - 10 blocks. If you drive from bensonhurst to mill basin down Avenue U, the ethnicities would change and cycle seven times in a 2.5 mile drive The section I grew up in was a mixture of all seven - italian, irish, orthodox jewish, non observant jewish, (yes they count seperately, if you don't know why, I won't bother because its too long of an explanation for this forum) chinese\korean, black, and pakistani\bangladeshi. I could probably throw a little latino in there also, but they were really scattered amongst most of the places, so don't count in having their own section.

Since we were so close together, no one could really not interact with other groups in school, shopping, etc. and I think we were better for it.

Originally Posted by makossa

EXCUSE ME

NO NO NO not just for families!!! As I will agree, it isn't a bad place (IMO) to raise a family, but the club scene here (which I am far removed) is extremely lively at least on week ends

I agree the train can be frustraiting, but IMO it's a small trade off for the rest. It's one of a few areas left that feels like "old school" Brooklyn.

a: the club scene isn't really my cup of tea, and thats me putting it nicely, so thats not particularly a draw to me. And where would I go to a bar over there, the salty dog? I'm not a cop or a fireman...

b: parking sucks too, probably one of the worst places in all of brooklyn

With that said, if I were desperate to stay in Brooklyn and couldn't find housing where I am now for whatever reason. Bay Ridge would certainly be an option, but thats only kinda sorta the point of the original post.

Originally Posted by TigerLily24

I already worked in NJ and as I became more familiar with Bergen County, it just offered more of what we wanted for our family. Your impression of NJ/LI is very biased.

None of my children, all now grown, stayed in or moved back to Brooklyn - they live in CO, NC, IL, NJ and NM (where I am now). While they remember it fondly, none of them want to raise their children there.

The negativeness of the impression really has more to do with what the adults are doing rather than the kids. Just the soulessness of living there, the unhappy marriages, the snobbishness, etc. Anything negative you can think of about the suburbs, I get the impression LI is the epitome of. I see people at work sleeping around, a successful Jamaican woman who is a bigshot in the company tells me how she feels isolated and would be more comfortable living in Canarsie back in Brooklyn (only if it wasn't so dangerous now), my cousin tells me how the kids in her schools were snobs. I really wish I was wrong about it, and I'll probably end up there anyway, but with all of this reinforcement going on, how could I not think the way I do?

And the fact that your kids all moved all over the country is just another confirmation that the place I once knew, and the place they found acceptable aand were happy with, is gone.

As an aside, I lived on Avenue V, when did you live on Ocean and U?

[sol1111]

Originally Posted by bluedog2

If you really grew up in a multi ethnic ghetto you were very lucky. I don't think that's the norm. I didn't grow up in NY but I grew up in an ethnic ghetto ( Irish) in Boston and it was very closed to everyone else .

My parents totally freaked out when they found out that my sister was dating and got engaged to an Italian.The fighting and screaming was unbelievable.They threatened to disown her.This too was common not that long ago.

I've never been to Woodlawn, but if you want to see Irish ghettos in Brooklyn, Gerritsen Beach is where to go. Queens has Breezy Point (which is a summer place really and very very nice) and Sunnyside. Interestingly enough, a bartender I know who came here from Ireland four years ago and moved to Sunnyside hates the Irish-American people who live there.

It's also interesting to me that your parents freaked out over an Italian. I've always tended to lump them together mentally because they frequently lived in the same places (both white europeans) here (see bay ridge, for example.

[Missmoose]

As an expat, I get what you mean I've come to realize that The NYC I grew up in was a time and a place. Folks moved - mostly they went to college and many stayed in a geographic orbit around the school. Others moved into cheaper places - roomMate's or the ever reliable "cheap and dangerous" neigh orhoods.


As for where to look, NYC seems to throw off satellites - the northern burbs of miami come to mind. There was also a town in Jersey where much of my old nabe wound up. Ya always bring a little Brooklyn with ya!

And agreed on the changes in your nabe. It's decidedly less friendly than it used to be.