Leaving your NYC home - my personal questions about the diaspora (New York: middle-class, apartment)

[sol1111]

Hey all. I noticed a lot of people answering the questions on this site tend to be people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, so some have a question for you guys about the places you grew up in and what you might have left behind.

First, a little background: I am 28 years old (born 1981) and lived my entire life in Sheepshead Bay \ Kings Highway section of Brooklyn. I was a regular middle class kid, had friends that were Irish, Italian, Jewish (like myself, only mildly observant), Black, Spanish etc - it didn't really matter to me. I remember playing basketball with Bangladeshi kids.

Some time around the early to mid nineties, things started to change. Many families started leaving for Jersey, Long Island, etc. and now, the neighborhood is mainly Chinese, Russian, remnants of the families like my own (namely, the parents) who stayed, and old folks. I have nothing against any of these groups e, but it feels like my home, the place where I and countless other middle class families grew up in, is gone. It feels like an ethnic ghetto now, due to the majority population seeming to be Russian and Chinese, which is only exacerbated by the fact that they seem to stick to their own kind.

Question 1: Why did you guys all leave New York City? An answer I hear frequently are the schools, its not safe, etc. but anyone who knows my neighborhood knows that it was never considered a "bad" neighborhood by any stretch of the imagination.

Question 2: If you didn't leave, where are your children, the people my age, go? A lot of time given to the hipsters coming TO Brooklyn or the Long Island kids living in the city, but what about the people like me? Brooklyn isn't some fantasy place like midwesterners think it is to us, and we all aren't able to afford the city. I have no idea where to meet people of similar background to myself.

Question 3: Is Long Island \ Jersey really that much better? I loved where I grew up, everything was close by, you could see kids playing in the streets and parents hanging out outside. Its all gone now here, but I get the impression it never even existed in LI\NJ. Images of those places are the snobs, the guidos, the blandness, the infidelity, the hollow pursuit of money and so forth. Am I just stereotyping?

Question 4: Do you think your kids would look back on their lives in Long Island the way you look back with fondness about your New York City neighborhood?

I understand that New York City has always been a place of ethnic succession, and that's all well and good, but doesn't give me my home back. It seems like I either accept being forced out, or stay here and feel culturally isolated. People talk a lot about gentrification "destroying the original feel of neighborhoods", but isn't that what happened to mine?

Finally, I don't mean to offend anyone with anything I've said, I'm really just looking for answers. Comments appreciated.

[bluedog2]

Originally Posted by sol1111

Hey all. I noticed a lot of people answering the questions on this site tend to be people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, so some have a question for you guys about the places you grew up in and what you might have left behind.

First, a little background: I am 28 years old (born 1981) and lived my entire life in Sheepshead Bay \ Kings Highway section of Brooklyn. I was a regular middle class kid, had friends that were Irish, Italian, Jewish (like myself, only mildly observant), Black, Spanish etc - it didn't really matter to me. I remember playing basketball with Bangladeshi kids.

Some time around the early to mid nineties, things started to change. Many families started leaving for Jersey, Long Island, etc. and now, the neighborhood is mainly Chinese, Russian, remnants of the families like my own (namely, the parents) who stayed, and old folks. I have nothing against any of these groups e, but it feels like my home, the place where I and countless other middle class families grew up in, is gone. It feels like an ethnic ghetto now, due to the majority population seeming to be Russian and Chinese, which is only exacerbated by the fact that they seem to stick to their own kind.

Question 1: Why did you guys all leave New York City? An answer I hear frequently are the schools, its not safe, etc. but anyone who knows my neighborhood knows that it was never considered a "bad" neighborhood by any stretch of the imagination.

Question 2: If you didn't leave, where are your children, the people my age, go? A lot of time given to the hipsters coming TO Brooklyn or the Long Island kids living in the city, but what about the people like me? Brooklyn isn't some fantasy place like midwesterners think it is to us, and we all aren't able to afford the city. I have no idea where to meet people of similar background to myself.

Question 3: Is Long Island \ Jersey really that much better? I loved where I grew up, everything was close by, you could see kids playing in the streets and parents hanging out outside. Its all gone now here, but I get the impression it never even existed in LI\NJ. Images of those places are the snobs, the guidos, the blandness, the infidelity, the hollow pursuit of money and so forth. Am I just stereotyping?

Question 4: Do you think your kids would look back on their lives in Long Island the way you look back with fondness about your New York City neighborhood?

I understand that New York City has always been a place of ethnic succession, and that's all well and good, but doesn't give me my home back. It seems like I either accept being forced out, or stay here and feel culturally isolated. People talk a lot about gentrification "destroying the original feel of neighborhoods", but isn't that what happened to mine?

Finally, I don't mean to offend anyone with anything I've said, I'm really just looking for answers. Comments appreciated.

It sounds like the only thing that has changed is that the "remnants of families like your own " is now the minority instead of the majority.

Were the new groups welcomed with open arms when they started arriving? Maybe they felt isolated when they were the minority.

Whether you realize it or not most city neighborhoods have always been ethnic ghettos of one kind or another.People always stay together with their own group.You might not have felt it when you were growing up but the Sheepshead Bay of your youth was probably considered an ethnic ghetto by NY'ers higher up on the ladder.

I don't understand the concept of being "forced out". It always sounds like something that is self imposed to me.

[eek]

actually, i have to side with the thread starter/op.
i totally understand where you're coming from and its sad. i want to know the answers as well.

it does seem like ppl are being forced out and those that are coming in are changing the whole shape of ny.

[ddhboy]

Well I'm currently 19, but I'm currently considering leaving the city, even though I grew up here. As much as I love the pace of life here, its just too expensive to justify living here now. And when the prices drop dramatically (they will) the city will be trapped with the debt its accumulated (11.3 billion as of January) and public services are going to take a real nose dive.

So basically, I'm considering the move because of cost of living v. quality of life, the fact that I want to own property, and don't feel that a studio condo should cost 400k, and that the pay here isn't dramatically different than other cities.

I considered Jersey City, but now I'm thinking someplace in Texas like Dallas or Austin, or the Seattle area of Washington. The taxes in New Jersey and this state are just crazy, and so far Washington has no state income taxes which means more of my income remains with me. Plus I think that the office jobs will return back to Seattle and Dallas after the recession, but I don't see them returning to NYC, mostly because of the cost of running a business here.

I love my city, but I think that its a sinking ship.

[sol1111]

Originally Posted by bluedog2

Were the new groups welcomed with open arms when they started arriving? Maybe they felt isolated when they were the minority. It sounds like the only thing that has changed is that the "remnants of families like your own " is now the minority instead of the majority.

You're correct that I feel as if we're now the minority, but back then the minorities had their own little communities in the area which many of us interacted with via parks, public schools, etc. The bangladeshi kid I played ball with is the perfect example - there has been a pakistani \ bangladishi community on Coney Island Avenue for as long as I can remember, and we had no problems associating with them. I feel like all of "us" that still live here are fragmented amongst the new majority in ways the previous generations of minorities were not, partially because theres not really many of "us" even left here.

Whether you realize it or not most city neighborhoods have always been ethnic ghettos of one kind or another.People always stay together with their own group.You might not have felt it when you were growing up but the Sheepshead Bay of your youth was probably considered an ethnic ghetto by NY'ers higher up on the ladder.

Thats just the thing - it might have been an "ethnic ghetto" (a multi ethnic ghetto, really), but it belonged to everyone - the multi ethnic-ness is what made it special, at least for me, even though I was part of the majority.

I don't understand the concept of being "forced out". It always sounds like something that is self imposed to me.

You said yourself that people always (though I prefer "tend to") stay with their own group. The feelings of being "forced" out is not in the literal sense (perhaps this is the key difference between what I describe and gentrification), but is kind of a metaphor to describe the sense of lost community. The questions I wrote toward the end of the post were me asking where did the people like me go, is it really all that its cracked up to be, and what of the stereotypes regarding white flight and suburbia in general.

[sol1111]

Originally Posted by ddhboy

So basically, I'm considering the move because of cost of living v. quality of life, the fact that I want to own property, and don't feel that a studio condo should cost 400k, and that the pay here isn't dramatically different than other cities.

You know, I hear this kind of thing all the time, and its Mod cut: language. If you want to live in the city, sure a 1BR\Studio condo will run you 400K, but my moms *house* (small, yet two family) rowhouse could sell on the market now for "only" 550K. That's a big part of why I did't move very far in the first place - I pay 1300 a month for a 1 bedroom (rent) on Ocean Avenue, but the place is huge - more apartment then I need really.

As a somewhat related aside, I read an article on citidata not too long ago about a report of the death of the middle class in NYC. (wish I still had the link, I'll find it later mabye) - even if I wanted to stay here, but move to another neighborhood, it's close to impossible - most places are either super rich or super poor - gentrification, hipters, etc. are wiping out the middle-classification of the poor areas.

[ocean2026]

People started moving well before the 90's - a factor in the Brooklyn Dodgers leaving was there were only 700 parking spaces making it much more difficult for those who had already moved to Long Island in the 50's to attend and park.

Many from NY moved to florida not NJ or LI and as Florida became expensive and crowded they went other places. Many like me went to Texas- places like El Paso and Rockport ( on the ocean) and friendly and cheaper than other havens for expats. No state income tax and better weather.

In real life Texans think New Yorkers are interesting and care little about ethnicity (there's about 5 Jews in my town yet the county elected me to the school board- in another county similar demographics they elected me DA.

I like Texas- except for Bush...

[NooYowkur81]

Nobody was forced out. Once the neighborhood started becoming too brown for comfort people left. That's the truth. A lot of people only tolerate brown folks in small numbers. For instance it's cool for some to say, hey I know a Spanish guy, but once it's a significant few, people get scared and start getting little thoughts to move out. By the way notice I say people, because every group does the same thing. Latinos do it with Asians and Black people, and vice versa.

OP I'm sure there were some people in the minority during your time who felt isolated or unwelcome.

Also slightly OT but to add to the Brook Dodgers talk I was watching that Baseball doc again by Ken Burns, and its mentioned in there that the owner of the Dodgers wasn't really too keen on Flatbush becoming a mostly Black neighborhood, and that it was ironically (considering Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, and Don Newcombe were a huge part of their success during the time, and they were considered "Black America's team") one of the main reasons he pushed for a new stadium and eventually made the move to LA.

[Irish Eyes]

I completely agree with the OP. I left Brooklyn because I realized I wasn't going to really miss it - because I already really missed the Brooklyn I grew up in. I grew up in Midwood so I'm really familiar with your area. My husband felt the same way. And the people who are telling you that different ethnicities always felt that way do not understand that Chinese and Russian immigrants will not mix with anyone. And often won't serve you in stores and restaurants. "Forced" out? Maybe not. But when you have spent your whole life in a real community only to have to live now with "neighbors" who won't so much as acknowledge you when you say goodmorning, it sure feels like you are "forced" to move.

We moved primarily because of the overcrowding and traffic. Add to that a really lousy police precinct and it just wasn't any place we wanted to be anymore. And we weren't going to spend the money we'd have had to spend for a house only to have our neighbor 6 inches from our window. For me, if I was leaving the city then I didn't want to be in NY at all. We had planned to wait a few years and then head someplace colder - VT, MA. But the RE market was good and we took a look at NJ. And the spot I'm in feels a lot like old Brooklyn. Kids out in the street, on their bikes. I like it here. But not if I was single. At your age, I would probably stick it out a few more years. Find someone you want to escape with. In the meantime - what about a different neighborhood? Bay Ridge still has at least a few good years left.

[tpk-nyc]

I know a middle-class immigrant family from Queens. They had two children. One is single and lives in Manhattan and the other is married with two kids and lives on Long Island. I think this is representative of people who grew up in the outer parts of the boroughs. They either become connected into the Manhattan scene and move into (or closer to) the city or they move to the suburbs and have children.