Bronx area - Fordham/Kingsbridge (New York, York: transplants, credit, landlord)

[Elvira Black]

So the area must be reserved only for the working poor because

A: It's "a hellhole"

B: If you don't agree, you have no business here, and you don't "deserve" it anyway.

The "ghetto" isn't the only ghetto. NYC is full of them--rich and poor.

[Guywithacause]

Hustla the change is the Bronx is clear and palpable. It is you that cannot see past your housing project to recognize all that is changing in the borough. How can you dismiss the new affordable housing as more of the same? How can you dismiss the market rate 2/3 family homes are more of the same..selling for $600,000+. How can you dismiss the new commercial businesses entering the market...Zales, Starbucks, Middle-America Chains like Pizzeria Unos and Applebees, etc. How can you dimiss the huge investment in waterfront districts like the clean up of the Bronx River, waterfront parks, and the mega-Yankee stadium development that will host a new retail/shopping district, waterfront esplanades, and a complete infrastructure overhaul. How can you dismiss the greening of the Bronx and the renovation of parks.

If you believe nothing has changed, it is you that is living in a shell and a time-warp for that matter. If nothing were being done you would claim the same tired story of racisim, abandonment, and whitey keeping us down. Now that things are happening and investment taking root, you claim it is all the same, no point in trying, and just smoke and mirrors. The glass will always be half empty to you no matter what happens in the Bronx, and it is unfortunate for you.

[Elvira Black]

Husta, there is a thread here where I asked people who grew up poor in NYC what factors helped them succeed to whatever degree they did despite the odds.

Invariably, they said that parents and/or teachers instilled in them the importance of education and hard work. The importance of staying out of gangs and staying in school. Tough love and involvement and concern for their children's future rather than more hopelessness and futility.

There are poor and most likely always will be, but it isn't a death sentence, a shame, or a crime. Individuals do have some power over their lives even in very negative circumstances, and this is true of every race and nationality here. Immigrants know that despite the fact that the streets in NYC are not paved with gold, they have a far better chance of breaking the poverty cycle, if not for themselves then for their children. It's happened over and over and over again in this city. Endless poverty is not inevitable.

It's not that we're ignoring the bad, but there is opportunity here. No one can do it for you. Saying it's hopeless, IMO, is an easy cop-out. It is hard, hard work to try and do better for yourself and your family. Much much easier to throw your hands up in despair.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Hustla the change is the Bronx is clear and palpable. It is you that cannot see past your housing project to recognize all that is changing in the borough. How can you dismiss the new affordable housing as more of the same? How can you dismiss the market rate 2/3 family homes are more of the same..selling for $600,000+. How can you dismiss the new commercial businesses entering the market...Zales, Starbucks, Middle-America Chains like Pizzeria Unos and Applebees, etc. How can you dimiss the huge investment in waterfront districts like the clean up of the Bronx River, waterfront parks, and the mega-Yankee stadium development that will host a new retail/shopping district, waterfront esplanades, and a complete infrastructure overhaul. How can you dismiss the greening of the Bronx and the renovation of parks.

If you believe nothing has changed, it is you that is living in a shell and a time-warp for that matter. If nothing were being done you would claim the same tired story of racisim, abandonment, and whitey keeping us down. Now that things are happening and investment taking root, you claim it is all the same, no point in trying, and just smoke and mirrors. The glass will always be half empty to you no matter what happens in the Bronx, and it is unfortunate for you.

First of all no one was talking about the Bronx. We are talking about the South Bronx (and other low income Bronx neighborhoods).

Besides that, wow you are built on hype. All your statements are meaningless. Applebees? Starbucks? Not in the South Bronx BTW. More importantly establishments like that will not help the people in the South Bronx. Waterfront parks? Yankee Stadium? How does this help the population of the South Bronx. WHERE ARE THE SCHOOLS? WHERE ARE THE PARKS? WHERE ARE THE NEW SUBWAY LINES?

There has been little change. In the end, every single thing you mention about the South Bronx is insignificant. I don't care if it makes you feel bad or upsets you but it has little effect on changing the lives of those who live in the South Bronx. In the end, the South Bronx is still a poor, Black and Latino, poverty stricken ghetto. All the stuff going up in the South Bronx right now leads to more money in the pockets of the rich. That is all.

What the South Bronx needs is more:

-Low income housing. Not nearly enough being built to take on the burden of the great migration of poverty from the rest of the city. Thank gentrification.
-Schools. It's bad enough the schools are crap, but what about more schools to ease the overpopulation burden. Schools that actually have gyms and ain't falling apart.
-Green space. Community gardens are being destroyed, parks (Example, Yankee Stadium and it's parking lots). Overdevelopment.

Will any of this make the South Bronx a great place to live no. That takes a lot of struggle and a little luck from the individual. Will it at least house the low income population of NYC? Hopefully, and current trends suggest this will be the case. It won't be a yuppyville. Enough already...

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

Husta, there is a thread here where I asked people who grew up poor in NYC what factors helped them succeed to whatever degree they did despite the odds.

Invariably, they said that parents and/or teachers instilled in them the importance of education and hard work. The importance of staying out of gangs and staying in school. Tough love and involvement and concern for their children's future rather than more hopelessness and futility.

There are poor and most likely always will be, but it isn't a death sentence, a shame, or a crime. Individuals do have some power over their lives even in very negative circumstances, and this is true of every race and nationality here. Immigrants know that despite the fact that the streets in NYC are not paved with gold, they have a far better chance of breaking the poverty cycle, if not for themselves then for their children. It's happened over and over and over again in this city. Endless poverty is not inevitable.

It's not that we're ignoring the bad, but there is opportunity here. No one can do it for you. Saying it's hopeless, IMO, is an easy cop-out. It is hard, hard work to try and do better for yourself and your family. Much much easier to throw your hands up in despair.

There is plenty hopelessness in the South Bronx. Rent burdens do not make things any easier. It just adds to the list of problems. Many people will not make it out of the South Bronx. Some will die. Be it murder or natural death thanks to asthma, heart diesese, ect. Some will have criminal records and be stuck in a life of poverty, due discrimination against those with prior convictions. Many more will not finish HS and not even finish high school. Trapped in a cycle of dead end jobs and/or low income. Many people will not make it out of the poverty cycle.

Whats even worse is todays street mentality. You also have so many poor families today. So many living in shelters. Many more then there have ever been. Over half the youth in the South Bronx live in poverty.

A new Yankee Stadium does nothing for these people. Neither does a rent burden.

This is a topic for another thread and goes beyond NYC's ghettos.

[BXGEAR]

^Let me add my 2 cents
The ghetto cycle is never ending

I'll give you an example:
I was taking the 2 train home and I sat next to 3 friends. Conversation went like this:
14 year old, "You heard Blank got locked up on some dumb ****"
16 year old, "Yea yea that **** was ****ed up"
14 year old, "N*gga if that was me I woulda click clack blaow on that pig mutha****a"
15 year old, "Werd, werd"

One more:
I was at the store and a young guy and a young girl walk in. As they were about to leave, this is what I see (The young girl is pushing a stroller):
Young girl, "Where we goin?"
Young guy, "Shut up woman, just follow!"
Young girl, "Dont be catchin no attitude!"
and she follows him out.

And plus, the some police are *******s. I understand they are just doing their jobs and they fear for their lives. Very respectable. But, they are rude, aggressive, and demeaning.

One time, a meter maid was near my car scanning my front numbers. I walk up behind her and say "Excuse me, may I ask why you are scanning my car?" Before I finish my sentence she says "Sir, step away blah blah blah" So I just said "Forget it" and walked back to the store. I got no ticket, so why did she do that?

Cops are rude, the street people harass cops. It's tit for tat. Each group acts on pride.

Just one example of the never ending cycle of the ghetto

[Concept]

Hustla...out of all the things u pointed out, the biggest problem for the bronx, imo is the migration of poor from other boros to the bronx.

while every other boro is seeing whole neighborhoods gentrifying, none of that is happening in the bronx. alot of the displaced are in fact moving to the bronx, and the bronx is getting poorer if anything. the low-income pop is spreading, not being reduced. you could even see signs of this in the some of the better neighborhoods. I see it happening in my own (pelham pkwy). Section 8 was virtually non-existant here 10 yrs ago. now many ppl have it, and it has damaged alot of the blocks.

the trend i see is the bronx is absorbing more poor and the middle class is slowly exiting. i dont see gentrification happening anytime soon. i actually see the opposite...the low-income population is slowly spreading north and east. and if u wana point to port morris as an example of gentrification, fine but remember that it is a very tiny area.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Concept

Hustla...out of all the things u pointed out, the biggest problem for the bronx, imo is the migration of poor from other boros to the bronx.

while every other boro is seeing whole neighborhoods gentrifying, none of that is happening in the bronx. alot of the displaced are in fact moving to the bronx, and the bronx is getting poorer if anything. the low-income pop is spreading, not being reduced. you could even see signs of this in the some of the better neighborhoods. I see it happening in my own (pelham pkwy). Section 8 was virtually non-existant here 10 yrs ago. now many ppl have it, and it has damaged alot of the blocks.

the trend i see is the bronx is absorbing more poor and the middle class is slowly exiting. i dont see gentrification happening. i actually see the opposite...the low-income population is slowly spreading north and east. and if u wana point to port morris as an example of gentrification, fine but remember that it is a very tiny area.

Exactly.

Some of neighborhoods that are experiencing this first hand are those just outside the current high crime neighborhoods (South Bronx, Fordham-Bedford, Soundview/Castle Hill, Northeast Bronx). Pelham Parkway and Allerton are perfect examples. Van Nest is the perfect example of a later stage. They just built two brand new low income housing buildings right down the block from a section 8 buildng on Bronxdale Ave. That is the current housing trend in the Bronx. Another example is Bedford Park and Norwood, the quality of life in those neighborhoods was so much higher in the past. Now there are blocks right off Mosholo Parkway, no different then what you would find in the South Bronx.

[Elvira Black]

The gospel according to Hustla:

"There is plenty hopelessness in the South Bronx. Rent burdens do not make things any easier. It just adds to the list of problems. Many people will not make it out of the South Bronx. Some will die. Be it murder or natural death thanks to asthma, heart diesese, ect. Some will have criminal records and be stuck in a life of poverty, due discrimination against those with prior convictions. Many more will not finish HS and not even finish high school. Trapped in a cycle of dead end jobs and/or low income. Many people will not make it out of the poverty cycle.

Whats even worse is todays street mentality. You also have so many poor families today. So many living in shelters. Many more then there have ever been. Over half the youth in the South Bronx live in poverty."

You think you invented poverty or something? A lot of what you're talking about is partly a choice. Most immigrants who came here, past and present, came here dirt poor. In my mom's day there was no such thing as welfare, section 8, or public housing projects. Millions prospered and climbed out of the tenements (two to a bed in my mom's household) due to hard, hard work and sacrifice.

My grandmother insisted all her children finish high school. My mom had to start working at age 14 after my grandfather died so she and her four siblings could eat. She went to high school at night to finish her degree. Their standard of living was horrendous. Guess how they all turned out?

Poverty due to "discrimination" over priors? Gee, that's unfair, isn't it?

"Stuck" in the poverty cycle and not finishing high school? Gee, wonder why that might be? Do you think the two might be connected--and do you think people have no choice about not finishing high school just because their peers are too busy getting into trouble? There's a state of the art library on Kingsbridge Road now open seven days a week from 9 am to 9 pm, with plenty of guards/security. Hit the books instead of wandering the streets looking for trouble. Want some pocket change? Instead of robbing, earn your money with a part time job, and don't squander what you do have.

Street mentality? So I suppose everyone is a robot who has to conform to that mentality automatically?

How do you break the cycle of poverty? Don't go along with the crowd. If you're gonna refuse to use birth control and have children you can't afford and no spouse to help provide a positive role model (bad choice number one) at least encourage them not to make the same mistakes you did and continue the cycle of poverty by popping out more kids who will in turn be in the same cycle. Tell them to give themselves a fighting chance by not burdening themselves with kids when they are kids themselves,--which will almost guarantee they will always be struggling. Having children is a huge commitment and a very expensive one.

Have some concern and real love for the children you chose to bring into this world. Encourage them to stay out of gangs, work hard at school and work, even strive for college. Don't encourage them to take the easy way out, to succumb to peer pressure from posturing idiots who will go nowhere. Let them know that true courage is taking the road less traveled. Let them know that you have to work hard and struggle for what you want, delay gratification, don't fall for the fake easy status of flashy gold jewelry. Save your money instead of spending it on junk to give you a false sense of ghetto prosperity.

Despite what you think, many of the poor immigrants in these neighborhoods are doing just that. They somehow manage to scratch up the money to send their kids to parochial schools in the community. They don't leave their kids to fend for themselves. Many (the working poor) work hard to better someone other than themselves--namely, the children they brought into this world. (Why do you think many have the wherewithal to eventually move on to someplace better?) Tell them to respect where they live, not to vandalize and deface their own home just because they get cheap or free rent. Teach them to have pride in their heritage and not to disrespect themselves and others by using a term which symbolizes one of the most disgraceful eras in our history--the self same epithet which they would likely kill a white person over if they dared to utter it. And try to set a positive example by practicing what you preach.

Help them to realize that there is indeed a world outside the ghetto they were born into. Hope is a very powerful thing, just as hopelessness is. They needn't live and die in the ghetto. It is not inevitable.

I know you will have "answers" to all my points, but they are easy excuses as far as I'm concerned. And don't think I have no compassion. I said over and over again that I think the poor should have decent food, clothing, shelter. But no one can make you do the hard work to get to a better place in life. That's up to you to do.

Furthermore, you do more to stereotype the minority poor than any white person could hope to do. You disparage your own people and don't seem to believe that any of them have the potential to become decent members of society. You do a disservice to them, and to yourself.

[Concept]

Hustla,

bingo. you summed it up pefectly. I think those that disagree with our assesment are either non-bronxites and/or just dont know what the bronx was like as a whole 5 and 10 and 20 years ago, etc.

[Elvira Black]

I know what this city was like way before that. Probably way before you were even born.

And the Bronx, from what I've heard from OLD time veterans, was a wonderful, safe place to live. (or at least, the Fordham area which you all claim is the ghetto now).