Bronx area - Fordham/Kingsbridge (Cortland, Morris: new home, prices, bus)

[yodel]

Originally Posted by Hustla718

Not everyone has the opportunity you speak of. What about the kid, with no father figure, raised by the streets. What do expect from him? What about the good girl who is killed by the stray bullet? What about the oldest son, who dropped out of High School to care for his younger brothers and sisters, since his father was absent and his mother is not capable alone.

I don’t mean to minimize anyone’s problems, but people often deliver what is expected of them. Low expectations will often lead to low achievement.

Really last thing that the 'hood needs is for its positive role models to abandon it.

[Guywithacause]

Agreed Yodel...I dunno why Hustla, or those that ascribe to his doom and gloom, would rather have people of substance avoid the Bronx, and areas like Mott Haven in particular. What purpose does this serve besides further abandonment, segregation, and worse conditions?

There are immense opportunities in these communities to make money, improve neighborhoods, and bring back entire swaths of communities...and people are doing just that. The days of abandonment are over....it has proven not to work....so why is he still beating that drum? It is truly a disservice to those in the community that he purports to care so much about.

Nobody is saying the areas are perfect, crime-free, or have excellent public schools, however if people continue to dismiss these communities as "just the ghetto' as Hustla would have them do...how exactly do they improve and change? They don't. Luckily, his doom and gloom are limited to a few, and more people, investment, and change is coming at a hurried pace.

[Elvira Black]

Originally Posted by yodel

I don’t mean to minimize anyone’s problems, but people often deliver what is expected of them. Low expectations will often lead to low achievement.

Really last thing that the 'hood needs is for its positive role models to abandon it.

Yodel, you managed to say in two succinct sentences what I was struggling to convey over and over at great length and ad nauseum.

Kudos to you.

[Elvira Black]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Nobody is saying the areas are perfect, crime-free, or have excellent public schools, however if people continue to dismiss these communities as "just the ghetto' as Hustla would have them do...how exactly do they improve and change? They don't. Luckily, his doom and gloom are limited to a few, and more people, investment, and change is coming at a hurried pace.

Precisely Guy...the thing is that some people on this forum repeat, over and over again, the straight up lie that you, I or anyone else who finds anything of worth in the Bronx is touting it as a paradise, and duping innocents into coming to live here without reservation. It's much easier to "win" your point if you distort what your "opponent" has actually said. It's called intellectual dishonesty. Good thing it's all here in black and white for the record.

[djmikeyfx]

Interesting, -- 141K and 53 murders / Rochester is 208K and 37 murders YTD -- so I guess it's like Rochester

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Agreed Pete Piper..in his posts..he says Low-income housing is what is needed in the Bronx to help the community..but he consistently calls all the new affordable housing being built as "the future projects" and "ugly" and "crappy"..so which is it?

As I have stated numerous times, the glass is eternally half-full and nothing is ever positive. He clamors for affordable housing and then calls the affordable housing the future projects, he gives no credit to the greening of the Bronx, the new Parks that are opening in the borough (have you heard of Barretto Park? Opened recently on the Bronx River in Hunts Point...has a beach, sand volleyball courts, bike paths, paddle ball courts, bathrooms, fishing pier, jet-ski launch, and beautiful views and green grass..how about the parks opening on the waterfront by Yankee staidum....coming soon...), the new market rate housing that is being built on the abysmal vacant lots are also "the future projects" and a "rip-off", the new retail center being built by Yankee stadium with restaurants and major retailers, the new Sears Tower on Fordham, and the new Hutchinson Metor-Center Office space...a waste of money and time to Hustla.

None of these are improvements according to him...no matter what is done, it is all pointless....so why bother doing anything...let's just sit and stare at eachother...that's the answer!

And Concept, I agree with you, the poor and working classes are flooding into the Bronx from other boroughs, as are transplants from the city, and new arrivals from inside and outside the country, which means prices are going up, and changes are inevitable. If you believe the Bronx is just more of the same, you are wrong, especially in the South Bronx...change is brewing...

You cannot win with Hustla..his agenda is quite clear.

You post a lot of bull****.

First of all, the low income housing is a necessary evil. It's needed, becuase most of the people moving into the South Bronx are low income or live in poverty.

Now does this make the South Bronx better? NO.

You talk about my agenda, and you just make up thing like "I don't like Whites" with no backing. That is a personal attack. You are making things up to discredit me.

When I recommend neighborhooods, I recommend people to look towards decent areas at least. If not, I tell them to explore other cities.

You are upset I refuse to buy into the bull**** and recommend the South Bronx. A community I obviously know better then you do.

Your agenda is clear. You want to boost the Bronx so people move in. No matter how crappy the neighborhood, you just want people to move into the Bronx. You have obvious benefits doing this considering you own property.

Anyone who looks through your prior post history will see you do what it takes to boost the neighborhoods. Ignoring obvious negatives, even in communities where the negatives weigh much, much more then the positives. Doesn't feel so great huh. Anyone can feel free to look through my post history. I say it how it is. People respect that, Which is why people come by, read, agree, and drop off some rep. For you, it's the same few non native new residents talking ****. People don't agree with you as though you would like to belive.

Me, I have no agenda minus helping people select decent area. Everything else you say is made up and in your head. I am looking for a new community, and I would expect people to give me the real deal. Not hope, not naive belifs, the real deal. And I give that back.

Originally Posted by yodel

I don’t mean to minimize anyone’s problems, but people often deliver what is expected of them. Low expectations will often lead to low achievement.

Really last thing that the 'hood needs is for its positive role models to abandon it.

When you have a daughter, you have more important things to worry about then taking care of the next persons kid. I do what I can at work. Trust me, I try as hard as I can to knock sense into the kids I lock up.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Agreed Yodel...I dunno why Hustla, or those that ascribe to his doom and gloom, would rather have people of substance avoid the Bronx, and areas like Mott Haven in particular. What purpose does this serve besides further abandonment, segregation, and worse conditions?

There are immense opportunities in these communities to make money, improve neighborhoods, and bring back entire swaths of communities...and people are doing just that. The days of abandonment are over....it has proven not to work....so why is he still beating that drum? It is truly a disservice to those in the community that he purports to care so much about.

Nobody is saying the areas are perfect, crime-free, or have excellent public schools, however if people continue to dismiss these communities as "just the ghetto' as Hustla would have them do...how exactly do they improve and change? They don't. Luckily, his doom and gloom are limited to a few, and more people, investment, and change is coming at a hurried pace.

The only reason the South Bronx has a lower vacancy rate today then it did is the low income housing shortage. If the city did not have this shortage and the population was dropping, you better belive the South Bronx would be even more abandoned then it ever was. No one wants to live in the ghetto.

[Guywithacause]

I have never claimed that you hate white, nor do I do anything to discredit you. I do recognize that you are anti-gentrification, and that you would prefer whites to stay out of the "ghetto," or anyone else for that matter. Nor do I attempt to discredit you, however I do recommend that people read your prior posts to get a better sense of the type of person you are, and the angle you take on issues, which is overwhelmingly negative.

I am glad that you admit that you believe the new housing will not help the Bronx...although everyone already knew you believed that. Furthermore, I do not ignore the negatives of any place, especially of certian neighborhoods that you term "the ghetto." I recognize the problems, I know they exist, but that is only 1 part....it is not the only part...whereas you believe there is only negative and that's all. I am reasonable and balanced, you are negative and one-sided...as I said...you only see the glass is half-empty, and I see it half full...so neither is wrong..just different perspectives.

Furthermore, I do not expect you to recommend certain areas in the Bronx to anyone, that is not really the issue. The issue is, that you cannot find any redeeming value, quality, or positive to these neighborhoods, which is grossly unfair, ridiculous, and paints you as someone that is not reasonable and rational.

I have no interest in pushing the Bronx to anyone, nor any agenda otherwise. I believe that ignoring certain area of the Bronx, as you would have people do, is not the answer...further abandonment and segregation is not the answer, nor is doing nothing at all. While you repeat the same old tired information (yeah we get it...crime...poverty..blah blah blah), I provide a different perspective of someone who sees the changes that are occuring, the new housing, commercial businesses, new faces, new investments, new parks, new infrastructure, etc. While you only focus on the negative, I look past that, without dismissing it, and inform about the other side....the side that you, and most people don't know or care to believe.

How do you believe you are giving the real deal when you only give the negative? That's not straight talking, nor is it "keeping it real." You do not believe any of the positive steps (as I stated above) make a difference...that's ridiculous and clearly not reasonable, rational, or "straight talking." I reognize the negative, but I prefer to focus on the positive and changes occuring that will positively affect the community, and those current and future residents...while you dismiss everything and just say "don't go there." Great..that helps.

[Elvira Black]

The thing is, that this is potentially the same situation that happened over and over in Manhattan over the past several decades. Most old timers refused to believe an area could become gentrified from a slum. Time and again they were proven wrong.

In the Northwest Bronx, (meaning Fordham, Kingsbridge etc) unlike the old tenement ridden LES, the area used to be very livable. After the subways were built so that commuters could reach the area easily from Manhattan, people moved there from areas like the LES for a better way of life. There was an incredible building boom, with apts that had amenities that were unheard of in the LES tenements (elevators, lobbies, etc). Some posters who lived there decades ago have attested to that. They have fond memories of a safe, pleasant area to grow up in, with stores and businesses, safe parks, etc.

So again, much of the same infrastructure is still there, and the history of the area is that it used to be relatively prosperous. Millionaires did not live here, but working and middle class did.

Cosmetically it looks different, but many areas in NYC that were once in horrible deterioration have since turned around. Park renovation may seem only "cosmetic," but all the Manhattan parks that were once notorious drug dens are now safe as can be. (Union Square, Bryant, Thompkins Park, etc etc).

The fact that there will still be low income housing here is a good thing IMO--it means that even if some areas get "better," not all the poor will be pushed out. It will likely not become totally yupped out, and the fact that it's not as close to the city as other areas (including the South Bronx) may deter some people from considering it.

In terms of "hype," often "seeing" is "believing." If you are looking for a reasonable rent and see buildings which look nice and well kept on the outside, you are more likely to consider living there. And again, if you are a law abiding citizen and have some common sense, you are much less likely to become embroiled in the violence which takes place daily (or more accurately, nightly) in the Bronx as well as all the other boroughs--unless they're making it all up on the local news night after night.

My point is that "hype" (in terms of the perception people have of an area) can sometimes be a self-fulfilling propecy both for potential residents as well as developers who have far more at stake in terms of investment and return, and look at many factors that the average resident may not be aware of at all. Something as "insignificant" as a park renovation, graffiti cleanup, etc. will not in and of itself "transform" an area, but when you add up the "little" things the cumulative effect can be dramatic. Thing is, that just as in all other areas that became gentrified, this change may not be as visible to the long time residents. It can take years until it is more obvious to all, but for those who have lived in other areas that went through the change, the pattern can be discerned.

There is a major housing shortage in NYC, and people still want to live here. Prices are much more reasonable in these "rundown" Bronx areas than the "nice" and"decent" areas Hustla describes (though Woodlawn still seems very affordable). It's easy to say for a little extra you can live in a much nicer area, but the irony is that once an area gets noticeably nicer, it's too late for many who are just starting out to afford them. I don't think that Hustla could afford to live in these better areas either. I couldn't afford the rents there, that's for sure.

[Guywithacause]

Agreed...if everyone ascribed to Hustla's doom and gloom, then just about every park in Manhattan would still be nothing more than drug dens, full of bums, prostitutes, and rampant crime all day and night. Of course, Hustla's uses his 20/20 hindsight to say how that's different because it's Manhattan...it could not work in the Bronx.....but if he were around back then he would be shouting the same "it will never change" rhetoric....and who knows..if enough people listened to his doom and gloom and did not take action and see the true value..those parks might still be a disaster and the city would be far worse off...not better.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

I have never claimed that you hate white, nor do I do anything to discredit you.

'Hustlas motives are too keep Whites out of the Bronx"

It's funny becuase in the past people said I liked Whites and I hated Blacks for whatever reason. When I recommend areas, I don't ask people what's their racial classification either...

"I take anything he says with a grain of salt because he is a cop and is not capable of seeing anything positive. I suggest you all to take a look at his past post and look at gloom and doom".

Haha. That is an attempt to discredit.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

I do recognize that you are anti-gentrification, and that you would prefer whites to stay out of the "ghetto," or anyone else for that matter. Nor do I attempt to discredit you, however I do recommend that people read your prior posts to get a better sense of the type of person you are, and the angle you take on issues, which is overwhelmingly negative.

I don't prefure Whites to stay out of the ghetto. I recommend anyone reguardless of race to aim for the best and get the best bang for the buck. To look into the best community possible for their hard earned dollar. If they can't find that in NYC, I advise them to look elseware.

As for the prior post. Most will sound negative to you becuase most of my post involve the low income areas of the city. And I don't hype them like you do. The ghetto is a ****hole. A bad place to live. However when it comes to other decent areas, I recommend them. On the other hand, you hype areas and try and pass off ****holes and decent places to live. How can you compare an area like Morris Park to Mott Haven? Anyone familiar with the Bronx would dismiss you for saying that.

It's one thing to say;

"I'm happy where I am but this place has a long way to go. There are a lot of problems here but it fits me."

However you say:

"Damn, Mott Haven is great. Great stores, Great transit, great! Oh and the crime is a little higher then the national average. But yeah the place is great and it's the future. Look out all the yuppies are moving in!"

Which is bull****.

Unfortunately, unlike what you want to think, most people ain't on your side.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

I am glad that you admit that you believe the new housing will not help the Bronx...although everyone already knew you believed that. Furthermore, I do not ignore the negatives of any place, especially of certian neighborhoods that you term "the ghetto." I recognize the problems, I know they exist, but that is only 1 part....it is not the only part...whereas you believe there is only negative and that's all. I am reasonable and balanced, you are negative and one-sided...as I said...you only see the glass is half-empty, and I see it half full...so neither is wrong..just different perspectives.

The new housing is not changing the Bronx. It's more of the same. Low income housing. More low income people. The Bronx county, the poorest urban county in America, some change...

I'm not "negative" "one sided" or "mean. That is reality. How are you going to change the poorest urban county in America, if you keep throwing in more poor people?

The only way would be to displace the poor, like what they are "trying" to pull off in Harlem. Gentrfication. That is not right in my opinion. But life is not fair

I am happy that low income housing is being built in the Bronx. A roof over the head of a low income individual. However it won't make it a better place to live.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Furthermore, I do not expect you to recommend certain areas in the Bronx to anyone, that is not really the issue. The issue is, that you cannot find any redeeming value, quality, or positive to these neighborhoods, which is grossly unfair, ridiculous, and paints you as someone that is not reasonable and rational.

I have no interest in pushing the Bronx to anyone, nor any agenda otherwise. I believe that ignoring certain area of the Bronx, as you would have people do, is not the answer...further abandonment and segregation is not the answer, nor is doing nothing at all. While you repeat the same old tired information (yeah we get it...crime...poverty..blah blah blah), I provide a different perspective of someone who sees the changes that are occuring, the new housing, commercial businesses, new faces, new investments, new parks, new infrastructure, etc. While you only focus on the negative, I look past that, without dismissing it, and inform about the other side....the side that you, and most people don't know or care to believe.

How do you believe you are giving the real deal when you only give the negative? That's not straight talking, nor is it "keeping it real." You do not believe any of the positive steps (as I stated above) make a difference...that's ridiculous and clearly not reasonable, rational, or "straight talking." I reognize the negative, but I prefer to focus on the positive and changes occuring that will positively affect the community, and those current and future residents...while you dismiss everything and just say "don't go there." Great..that helps.

Your not "equal". It is obvious certain neighborhoods you speak of, even neighborhoods you have little to no knowledge on minus what you pull off the times have many problems. More problems then positives and this is why these places are undesireable. People move there becuase they have to. however according to you, everything is great. You hype the positives and squash the negatives.

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

The thing is, that this is potentially the same situation that happened over and over in Manhattan over the past several decades. Most old timers refused to believe an area could become gentrified from a slum. Time and again they were proven wrong.

In the Northwest Bronx, (meaning Fordham, Kingsbridge etc) unlike the old tenement ridden LES, the area used to be very livable. After the subways were built so that commuters could reach the area easily from Manhattan, people moved there from areas like the LES for a better way of life. There was an incredible building boom, with apts that had amenities that were unheard of in the LES tenements (elevators, lobbies, etc). Some posters who lived there decades ago have attested to that. They have fond memories of a safe, pleasant area to grow up in, with stores and businesses, safe parks, etc.

So again, much of the same infrastructure is still there, and the history of the area is that it used to be relatively prosperous. Millionaires did not live here, but working and middle class did.

Cosmetically it looks different, but many areas in NYC that were once in horrible deterioration have since turned around. Park renovation may seem only "cosmetic," but all the Manhattan parks that were once notorious drug dens are now safe as can be. (Union Square, Bryant, Thompkins Park, etc etc).

The fact that there will still be low income housing here is a good thing IMO--it means that even if some areas get "better," not all the poor will be pushed out. It will likely not become totally yupped out, and the fact that it's not as close to the city as other areas (including the South Bronx) may deter some people from considering it.

In terms of "hype," often "seeing" is "believing." If you are looking for a reasonable rent and see buildings which look nice and well kept on the outside, you are more likely to consider living there. And again, if you are a law abiding citizen and have some common sense, you are much less likely to become embroiled in the violence which takes place daily (or more accurately, nightly) in the Bronx as well as all the other boroughs--unless they're making it all up on the local news night after night.

My point is that "hype" (in terms of the perception people have of an area) can sometimes be a self-fulfilling propecy both for potential residents as well as developers who have far more at stake in terms of investment and return, and look at many factors that the average resident may not be aware of at all. Something as "insignificant" as a park renovation, graffiti cleanup, etc. will not in and of itself "transform" an area, but when you add up the "little" things the cumulative effect can be dramatic. Thing is, that just as in all other areas that became gentrified, this change may not be as visible to the long time residents. It can take years until it is more obvious to all, but for those who have lived in other areas that went through the change, the pattern can be discerned.

There is a major housing shortage in NYC, and people still want to live here. Prices are much more reasonable in these "rundown" Bronx areas than the "nice" and"decent" areas Hustla describes (though Woodlawn still seems very affordable). It's easy to say for a little extra you can live in a much nicer area, but the irony is that once an area gets noticeably nicer, it's too late for many who are just starting out to afford them. I don't think that Hustla could afford to live in these better areas either. I couldn't afford the rents there, that's for sure.

The South Bronx is not Manhattan. It's a completely different animal. With the city building all it's low income housing in one area, it's increasing the lifespan of a ghetto. The poor have to live somewhere. The South Bronx is it.

The only changes in the Bronx are things the Bronxites have needed for a long time. The bare minimums. No transformations and there is still a lot that needs to be done.

But honestly if someone cannot afford to live in a decent section of the city. Why live in NYC? When you can have a much higher quality of life in many other cities which offer pretty much the same things, for less. NYC is not the center of the universe, the end all be all.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Agreed...if everyone ascribed to Hustla's doom and gloom, then just about every park in Manhattan would still be nothing more than drug dens, full of bums, prostitutes, and rampant crime all day and night. Of course, Hustla's uses his 20/20 hindsight to say how that's different because it's Manhattan...it could not work in the Bronx.....but if he were around back then he would be shouting the same "it will never change" rhetoric....and who knows..if enough people listened to his doom and gloom and did not take action and see the true value..those parks might still be a disaster and the city would be far worse off...not better.

You two don't just get it. Elivera Black, she is happy where she is but she is upset she is getting negative feed back from board. The vast majority of people would not make her choice, but that is up to her. I don't have a problem with it. Whatever floats your boat is the term.

However you, your like a hype machine. You try to bash me personally becuase your points are not strong enough. Unfortunately Elivera Black supports you becuase you encourage her.