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Thread summary:

Mayor introduces congestion pricing in Central Business District of Manhattan, no toll booths, poll collection via video camera license plate recording, commuter tax, reduce congestion

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Old 04-22-2007, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
7,527 posts, read 12,703,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason_Els View Post
PRECISELY the attitude we've come to expect from those who live in the city. When you say, "most people," you mean most people in the city. It's not just an inconvenience, it's money out of my pocket because I don't live there. It may not be bad for you, but it is bad for me.

"Get over," myself? As if my opposition is less valid than yours? There is a state (and a country) actually connected to the City of New York and it is not for you to tell me to pay extra money and, "get over it." I don't tell you how to spend your taxes, don't tell me how to spend mine. It's MY money to begin with, not yours just as your tax dollars are yours, not mine. Feel free to donate money to the City of New York. They do take donations and welcome them with open arms. If you want to pay more of your income to government, be my guest, but don't assume to tell me the same.
Look I get what you are saying, what bothers me is that you are using your particular situation as some kind of rationale, and that is weak. You cannot apply your particular situation as some sort of representation of the whole upstate region.

A lot of people upstate don't even come into that part of manhattan. Like mead pointed out, a lot of the traffic coming into the area is from the outer boroughs.

Most if not all of of us on this board pay taxes. Some of that tax money gets used for some crap that I know will never benefit me here in NYC, but I'm not paying taxes just for my own personal benefit. That isn't the point of taxes.

Last edited by NooYowkur81; 04-22-2007 at 11:20 PM..
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Warwick, NY
1,172 posts, read 4,195,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NooYowkur81 View Post
Look I get what you are saying, what bothers me is that you are using your particular situation as some kind of rationale, and that is weak. You cannot apply your particular situation as some sort of representation of the whole upstate region.

A lot of people upstate don't even come into that part of manhattan. Like mead pointed out, a lot of the traffic coming into the area is from the outer boroughs.
No it's not weak. It is wonderfully valid. The city has decided that rather than fix the traffic problem to the benefit of all users, from Manhattan itself to Hawaii and (even ) New Jersey, they have decided to punish those who most need to drive into Manhattan along with those who can afford the surcharge. That means, once again, the people who most need to drive into Manhattan and the rich, will pay the surcharge. Only one of those two groups will suffer for it and we who live and work up here aren't rich. New York's philosphy is to add more cost to everything. Will I receive any benefit for the additional tax I will pay? Will you? No! It doesn't pay for anything, instead it charges you and me more money to simply drive someplace that has a lot of traffic congestion. It's a privilege tax, plain and simple. I already pay a tax to the City of New York for services I rarely use AND which charge me in the form of tolls and fares for using them anyway!

If you live in the City of New York, you enjoy some part of your mass transit system because of the money I pay in my taxes and I don't even live there. Moreover, I pay the same tolls and fares that you do just as someone from Timbuktu who doesn't pay any taxes to the state of New York.

Imagine that we in the upstate charged you every time you crossed the GWB to come up here just because you're from the city? Want to enter Rockland or Westchester, pay us. Want to go to Albany? Buffalo? Just want to pass through? Too bad. You're crossing into my territory. You say you've already paid us? You say it's your territory too? F-you, Pay me.

That's what it's like.

It's wrong. No additional services will be provided, no new greater good for the city or the state will be created, no public works project will be created. It's confiscation for no benefit other than the enrichment of a government entity by barring the people who can least afford to enter Manhattan to begin with.

Enter, if you can afford it. If you can't, go away and leave the streets to those who can and, by the way, keep paying money to subsidize us.
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Old 04-23-2007, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
2,806 posts, read 11,397,974 times
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I'm really not understanding the point of your posts. You live in Warwick, which is about an hour and a half drive into the city. How often could you possibly drive in? Once or twice a month? If you are already paying $5 for the GWB, this will be only an extra $3. Is that extra $3 really going to be such a big deal? I think the people who will really be affected by this are the folks living in Queens, Brooklyn, Long Island, Bronx, and Westchester who get into the city without paying a toll. They are the ones who will really need to reconsider their options because driving into the city will all of a sudden cost $8 instead of it being free.

If it is really such a problem for you, have you considered relocating to somewhere closer?

There actually ARE tolls to get into Rockland & Westchester, $.75 on the Major Deegan and $4 for the Tappan Zee.

I think new services will be provided with this money though. With the extra $400 million, the city can finally begin to properly fund the subway system and hopefully fix up some of the long neglected stations.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:44 AM
 
Location: Warwick, NY
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How frequently do governments say, "It's only a few more dollars?," and how do those extra dollars benefit me? They won't. The people of the other boroughs might see a benefit, but I'm still paying to repair Manhattan's potholes while Manhattan isn't paying to repair ours.

I'm rather amazed that fellow New Yorkers, some of the most heavily taxed people in the country, think it's just dandy that yet another tax is being imposed to solve supposedly solve a problem.

I don't know how I can make it more clear beyond to state I'm already paying extra money to enter Manhattan, park there, and use its mass transit whether I do so or not and so are thousands of my fellow upstaters. Getting taxed even more just to cross some imaginary boundary is absurd. By these rights, every county, town, and village may as well charge people to enter their limits because you're using their roads. We should not have to pay for the city's inability to manage their traffic problems.

You're quite right in saying the people in the other boroughs will have quite a lot to worry about however, unlike them, we don't have a voice in city government. We pay the tax but get no representation in the government that levies it. This payment isn't for using a bridge or a road, it's simply to drive into another part of the state.

Quite a few people drive into the city a lot more than once or twice a month. At one point, I was driving in twice a week and now average about 5 times a month. That may not be a lot to you, but it's my money to begin with and I have a right to be indignant about how other people demand I spend my money, just as you do.

Manage your city as you like but once again, don't ask me to pay for it just as we don't ask you to pay for ours.
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Old 04-23-2007, 04:32 PM
 
1,247 posts, read 1,781,317 times
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Jason Els, you seem not to have addressed Mead's point that New York City-ers need to pay a toll when travelling upstate on 87 and the Tappan Zee. Also, those who live in NYC without a car need to rent one if they want to drive upstate. Now that's expensive! I am not, however, one of those people. I live in an outer borough and own a car, but can understand the need to reduce traffic downtown. So if I have to go there during the workdays, I'll have to pay the full $8. But to me it seems worth it.
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Warwick, NY
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We all pay Thruway and bridge tolls, not just people from NYC. Further, the bridges and the Thruway belong to all New Yorkers, not those of any particular municipality, unlike the streets of NYC.

That is the difference. It's not a two tier system of highway robbery that divides people into those who belong and are not charged and those who must pay to enter for the, "privilege," of driving into a specific area. To my mind, this violates equal protection. Manhattan is not gated community. Either everyone pays or nobody does and if the people of New York woke-up, they'd realize they shouldn't be paying anything extra since they are already paying for traffic management which the city can't seem to provide. In one stroke they're shifting their responsibility to the people who enter Manhattan and, while a few extra dollars may not mean much to you, creates yet another cost burden that means a great deal to the people who can least afford it.

$8.00 a trip to millionaire is a small dent. To someone who earns $40k and lives in a suburb or an outer borough, it's a big deal. Even more of a big deal to them because, as I have pointed out repeatedly, they're already being taxed for road maintenance and traffic management, and it's not a small tax either. I have nothing against millionaires, but this reeks of elitism. It basically says, "We only want people who can afford the extra costs to come in." They're basing who can come in and who can't by income, not be necessity. So not only this new tax elitist and unfair, it isn't even thoughtfully considered.

I doubt Mr. Bloomburg's friends will be bothered by this new tax, but for the little guy who needs to bring a car into the city, this will be a major bite out of his income.
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Old 04-23-2007, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
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How can something aimed at getting more people to use public transportation be considered elitist? That doesn't make any sense.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:53 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
2,806 posts, read 11,397,974 times
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I just read the transit plan and I think the news media is misreporting it a bit.

The way it seems to work is that if you are entering the Central Business District (CBD) which is anywhere south of 86th st in Manhattan you will be charged $8. If you are using an Ez-pass your charges will not exceed $8 in combination with other tolls you paid to get into the city.

However, for those driving soley around in the CBD and not entering Manhattan from an outer bourough or NJ will only be charged $4 per day. So Manhattanites driving around Manhattan it seems will still be charged a fee, but just a smaller one of 4 bucks.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:59 AM
 
Location: Warwick, NY
1,172 posts, read 4,195,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NooYowkur81 View Post
How can something aimed at getting more people to use public transportation be considered elitist? That doesn't make any sense.
Because the people it most effects are those who are least able to afford it.

Further, those who must drive are going to have to eat it as they can't take mass transit. Those who drive in because they want to will pay the extra fee because we know they can already afford the very high parking fees and if you can afford those, and have mass transit available, then the only reason you're paying those fees is because you can easily afford them.

The management at the brokerages won't see their company-subsidized limousines and private parking reimbursement go away because of this. No, the companies give management parking expense accounts for this cost. In any event, limousines are considered livery so they will be exempt from the fee just like regular yellow cabs. The costs of monthly parking are already so high that it doesn't make economic sense to drive into Manhattan if mass transit is available and it's otherwise practical unless:

You have to drive because of your hours, work needs, or physical limitations.

or

You need to carry too many things or people to make mass transit safe and practical.

or

You can afford the luxury of the additional costs (in which case the extra $8.00 isn't going to stop you from doing it anyway).

Guess which two of the three the congestion surcharge effects the most?

The receptionist who car pools, or the cleaning woman who doesn't like taking the train back home alone at 11pm, or the handicapped guy who works the shoe repair place, or the gyro cook with the heart condition who can't walk far in the heat, or the elderly store clerk with osteoporosis negotiating the snow and ice, they've got a whole new expense problem. Repair personnel needing to bring a heavy or bulky item to work with them or to bring heavy or bulky items home? The tourist with his family in-tow who has no idea how the mass transit system works? Restorers, dealers, and appraisers who regularly carry weapons, dangerous chemicals, antiques, and precious items to and from work? They're screwed. They will have to pay. What you going to do? Bring an Amati cello, bottles of acid, a Renoir painting, or an antique or prop rifle on the subway?

It's nice to think that everyone who travels into Manhattan is a young, able-bodied person who decides that the additional money is just the straw that breaks the camel's back so now they're going to use mass transit, but that just isn't the case.

Already a monthly garage parking space is $500 a month minimum with an eyeopening 18.375% parking tax originally imposed by the city as a supposed remedy for congestion! Manhattanites only pay 10%.

Now the city wants this new surcharge, once again allegedly meant to reduce traffic congestion but, in effect, only taxes those who don't live in the effected area. As with the parking tax, those who can afford it will eat it or pass the costs on to customers as a business expense while those who have to drive will just have to reach deeper into their pockets while the people imposing the tax and who will most benefit from it, won't have to pay nearly as much or anything at all. If that isn't elitism, I don't know what is.

It didn't work then, and it won't work now. It's insulting to be treated as a second-class citizen in your own country, never mind the same state by being forced to pay taxes aimed exclusively at people who have no voice in their imposition AND which the residents themselves pay at either a reduced rate or simply not at all.

That's why it's elitist and a whole host of other bad things.
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Old 04-24-2007, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
2,806 posts, read 11,397,974 times
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You're forgetting something in your equation.

A lot of blue collar people drive into the CBD because they are guaranteed a free parking spot. People such as Cops, firefighters, government workers, and construction workers are usually guaranteed free parking, and as a result they drive into the city in droves.

I think your complaints are unnecessary. If you really need to come into the city take the train or the bus, and if that isn't workable then I guess its just tough luck. You don't HAVE to shop in Manhattan, its not a necessity. There are other places where you can buy whatever you are looking for, and if you can't find it in a store you can buy it online. Rather you are just choosing to drive into NYC to go buy things.

You said something previously about oolong tea, well you can buy tons of that in any Asian grocery store in America. It isn't just available in Manhattan.

And another thing. Most older or infirm people don't really have a problem traveling around they city. They just end up taking the bus rather than the subway because it involvesless walking. The tradeoff is that it just takes longer to get where you are going.
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