What's the deal with Staten Island? (New York, Veteran: student loan, house, transfer to)

[nyc0127]

If you know so much than I doubt you'd be talking to someone you have little respect for. You claim that it got ''racially diverse.'' Within a few blocks, maybe that is true. The way you make it sound though is like she lived in Idaho. Honestly, you could take every black person out of Philadelphia and it would still be one of the filthiest cities on earth. Philadelphia is loaded with white trash. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a big reason why you aren't there anymore.

As far as your opinion goes about ''diversity'' is completely bias. I doubt your ancestors at one time fit the ethnic title. It's amazing how people can just forget about history though. You claim to be an Italian Catholic like it's a unique diverse stature in it's own. Yet, when compared to diversity such as black people, your true colors show. That is white. You can't play more than one deck. Either you are the same person to all (an Italian-American catholic) or you have multiple weak face (Italian catholic to uninterested whites and white to blacks). Even if some don't see you in that ''cute'' way, it doesn't mean you have to bow down to their opinions.

Why do you call it Italian-Catholic sometimes, yet white others? Please explain. Explain to me the integrity in that system. No offense, but are you in your own world? What makes you believe there were ever ''white neighborhoods'' in Philadelphia. Black people live in every part of Philadelphia (especially the working-class parts). The whites never had the means to isolate themselves.

Philadelphia gets more dangerous every year regardless of who lives there. The people in that city are an embarrassment. Nice little rowhomes? I swear man, you're awesome. Those things were built horrible. You couldn't pay me to live there during any generation. Who ever built them should be ashamed of themselves. The worst brownstone in Brooklyn is worth more than a dozen attached row homes in south Philadelphia. It's amazing how you believe your heritage still exists though. Yet it went from Italian to white. I guess you're the little magical person who societally disregards that though.

Any intelligent person would know wikipedia is a horrible resource. I wouldn't read that garbage. When I say Philadelphia has a horrible real-estate market, I mean it. $228,000? Wow. That might be okay for Philadelphia. What do you think that is in the real world though? Go to Cherry Hill and ask. You could even go into Pennsauken and get a couple giggles. You'd be lucky if you could get a mediocre split-end home in Cape May with that little amount of money. I'm not trying to insult you, but don't deny Philly's market is terrible.

Taking interest and having a self-identification are two totally different things. That means being the same man to all (not just whites). It means having society acknowledging your heritage without having to tell people. Those days are long gone. The best thing you can do is understand your history. If you understood your history though, you'd know that you are just a plain old white guy with no more heritage. I wish it wasn't like that. I won't sit here and live in a dream world like yourself though.

If it exists, please explain. I'm not talking about a lady in their 80's who is out of her mind. Go throughout this country and observe. I know the Italian food exists. I know for the educated (regardless of ethnicity) that the Italian language exists. Where does it exist on an individual level without forcing it in a pathetic manner? It's a joke. If you live in the suburbs, everyone is same as everyone else. Sadly, the Stepford wives is the reality of modern-day America. If you don't believe me, marry a U.S. history book.

I'm glad you were aware of the politically incorrect term ''Hispanic.'' It's too bad not enough others know about it though. Even if they knew when it was created, they never ask why. If society asked why it would diminish the integrity of it.

I agree that it isn't fair. The United States uses Latin American (especially Mexican) immigrants like a toy. Think of them as a division one college basketball player who averages triple-doubles. They're Christian/Catholic like Americans. They are acquainted to corruption just like Americans are (oh please if any of you actually thought America was ''innocent'').

Truthfully, people of Latin American descent don't need it. If they never had it to begin with, they wouldn't have asked. You don't think if other poor immigrants had such a luxurious offerings (Italians, Polish), they wouldn't have taken it? It's just human-nature to not fight something that helps you. Plus, how many Americans (including those of Latin American descent) really understand this situation as in depth as we do?

You're view upon Italian immigrants is so bias it's impossible to argue with you. You're an Italian-American. Of course you're going to be bias. Poverty and crime works hand and hand in American culture. People who are poor can get separate. They may not get treated fairly. Mexican immigrants are the modern-day version of what Italian immigrants were 100 years ago. No person who cares for their Italian heritage would ever admit it you, but it's true.

Most are catholic and come religious. Most are blue-collared and have little skill. There countries needed to drop out their poorest from the poorest regions, so they did. They both believed in the ''American dream.'' They both had a national identity. They both were viewed lowly by the whites who lead those societies. Italians were primarily in the Northeast and central. Mexicans were in the south-west and west coast. Try getting someone who cares about their Italian heritage in a major city to admit that though. They wouldn't. It would challenge their ''whiteness'', which was ultimately richer to them than their heritage.

Ironically, people believe it's like 85 percent of Mexican immigrants came illegally. Meanwhile, 85 percent probably came legally. The illegal part usually comes into not renewing visas. People actually believe running across the border is the illegality. Truthfully, there is no way to be an illegal immigrant in our country. Getting here is the biggest problems. Once you are here, you are here to stay. Their children will be totally different human-beings than them.

I severely doubt that your girl received ''affirmative action.'' Affirmative action barely have existed since the 1990's. The most popular method was deemed illegal (quotas). A black man named Ward Connerly took the initiative to set the tone for that. Instead, the government craftily funds organizations that help provide scholarships to students representing those backgrounds (they do have to match the same requirements as a normal scholarship though).

If and when I graduate college, I'll be the first one from my immediate family to have graduated college too.
Truthfully, she didn't deserve that change. It was a different era though. If you are born in the country, why would you be any less American than anyone else? You receive the same education and live in the same world. She should actually should be more advanced than other Americans because bilingualism and multi-cultural influences. This is a technological era where the only person who controls their destiny is that person.

How exactly would ''they'' have it made. Why do you not including Asians or Middle Easterners in that? Are you the media playing the tag-team method of saying the word black and Hispanic? Yet ironically, they have little to do with eachother. I know you was never discriminated against. In fact, any intelligent person would know that. That isn't what Americans are societally taught though.

Part of the term reason why the term Hispanic was implemented in 1970 was because America had to convince people they were ''different.'' So was the I love Lucy show white before 1970, but interracial post-1970? Because many of Latin American immigrants have indigenous ancestry, it prevents them from being camouflage to white America. That is more so true for groups such as Mexicans and south Americans.

Where as for Puerto Ricans and Cubans, most are white. In fact, 81% of Puerto Rico claims to be white. 10% is black. The rest is multi-racial. So little Native ancestry still exists there. There were 30,000 people there before 1492. Half of them were killed immediately trying to fight off the Spaniards. The other half diluted. What would 15,000 people be to 6 million people (in Puerto Rico and the U.S. mainland)?

People need to make sense out of this though. Within that 81%, most of that comes from Spain. Most countries on the Western hemisphere were established by Spain. Spain owned more African slaves than any other European country. Other European countries learned from the brutal ways the Spanish used. Cuba had some Spaniard migration during the late 1800's.

Most of Puerto Rico's white and black populations descend from the 1700's. That would mean over the past few hundred years through the crossing of families lines, almost every white Puerto Rican's ancestors would have owned slaves. For white Dominicans, whites were actually significantly outnumbered. That would mean they would have owned several slaves too.

Because few white southerners ever moved to the Northeast (and only 16% of whites in the south were planters), who else at a significant percentage owned slaves in the Northeast? 62% of Puerto Ricans in New York City say there race is white (10% black, 28% multi-racial). New York City is 9.9% Puerto Rican. That would mean that about 6% of New York City is white-Puerto Ricans.

Ironically, people would feel bad for this group because so many get clumped into the other 38%? People try to feel bad for Puerto-Rican Americans because there ancestors came to this country poor. Even though meeting middle-class Puerto Ricans is pretty normal in NYC, people indirectly twist the terms ''Hispanic'' with using Puerto Ricans as the face of this.

Even though, New York City was equally Puerto Rican in 1970 as it is now. Very few Puerto Rican migration has occurred since than. Life improved in Puerto Rico so the need to move was less. Plus, New York was getting more expensive. Yet, this goes back to the theory I presented about people thinking with their eyes (not their brains) during the post-Civil rights era.

What other term besides Hispanic could represent so much of the population? People who fall under that category are 14% of the U.S. If they had plummeted this money into Asians, Middle Easterners or other groups, it wouldn't have the impact. Plus, when they came, they were often educated.

When I said the U.S. disregards U.N. quotas, I meant it. Asians, Middle Eastern and African immigrants chose to move to other places. This limits how much they can come to the U.S. They move to France, Germany, England and Canada as much as here. The only countries Latin American immigrants really utilize are the U.S. and Canada.

Unlike the United States, Canada has high standards for their immigrants. They like for their immigrants to be ready to assimilate.They want college educated people. They want people with good medical histories (they have went as far to ban people with AIDS - sounds mean, but protects the interests of Canadians). They try to maintain a small population so they're able to allocate their resources to everyone (i.e. universal health care). They also don't crave the large military either.

America would take any immigrant regardless of intelligence or skill. This is why the reputation of our country is diminishing. Eventually when the term Hispanic becomes obsolete, the term will seize to exist. A prediction for that year is 2050. The U.S. will be one-quarter of Latin-American background. They will be considered as white as anyone else. The only difference will be that Spain will be the most predominate European-descended ancestry in America (not Germany).

Going back to my quote about white bigots in Philadelphia was about white bigots. Typically, white bigots are poor and uneducated. The far northeast is one of the most expensive places in Philadelphia. It is full of split-end homes. There are black people who live there. It may be less than the city, but still significant to suburbs. I agree that expensive places will tend to be less black (still ranging from 10 to 20%).

That is about as low of a percentage of black Philadelphia will ever get. Typically, Northwest Philadelphia has a reputation for being very black too. In contrast, in Brooklyn (38% black), there actually are segregated neighborhoods. Bensonhurst is like 3 or 4% black. That is plain awkward. With your random distaste for ''those people'', I wonder if that was part of the reason why you chose that neighborhood out of any.

There are black people who live in Packer park, Marconi Plaza and Girard estates. In the nicest homes on the nicest blocks, it may not seem like much. How many people live in those areas though? Manayunk and Roxborough are going through gentrification.

That means whites are actually coming into the neighborhood from other parts of the city because there is new hope. It means they weren't previously such nice places to live. If you've kept up on the news, people have had their cars randomly damaged in Manayunk. You'd seem quick to blame ''those people'' for doing that. All those places populations are small.

You don't say South Philly isn't black. You just ignore that they exist. You call south Philadelphia a tough old-school Italian neighborhood, yet the dominate individual ethnicity there are African-Americans. That same stay is true throughout most of Philadelphia. Outside of the revolutionary heritage, Philadelphia's culture is primarily African-American (especially in modern-day).

The only reason why you wouldn't think black when thinking about south Philadelphia is because it's less black than Philadelphia. There are no more South Philly Italian neighborhoods. It's not even because all those neighborhoods are ethnically integrated. It's because this is a modern world. You said in your other posts that Philadelphia is city that is really just white and black.

Apparently, you don't consider ''Italians'' an independent culture. Apparently, you didn't take Italians seriously enough to have their own independent culture from whites. You're delusional. You actually think Italian heritage exists in modern-day.

Oh, please. The Northeast in Philadelphia for a while wasn't even developed. So, how exactly was ''whites?'' It has always been a diverse neighborhood. If you got no money, the northeast could be a pretty ugly place. The only parts of Northeast Philadelphia that are tolerable shouldn't even be considered Philadelphia (especially near the Franklin Mills Mall). That is why blocks are nicer the closer you go to Bucks county.

How do I not know what I'm talking about? Philadelphia may be known for it's strong unions for blue-collared employees, but it doesn't mean they get paid well. To many uneducated people are willing to do the same jobs that the need to pay high isn't there. Even if you lived in a lower-middle class suburb, you'd probably prefer to stay in the suburbs. The same thing applies to civil service employees. I never met someone on the Jersey side who taught in Philly. Yet, half of Philadelphia's qualified teachers prefer to go to NJ (better pay).

There aren't all that many immigrants in Pat's. The whites in Philadelphia may put up with him because of his food, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they respect (or like) him. You should look up the demographics of Philadelphia for yourself. You'd realize there are as many blacks as whites. You'd understand this throughout the whole city.

That was my example for racial harmony? If that area is nice, god help Philadelphia. That neighborhood looks like it's the end of days. If the land was actually worth something, they would have knocked down every filthy home there. You can judge these south Philly homes from the outside. It speaks for itself.

No person would want to buy such an ugly thing. If that's the ''beautiful'' home you claim your uncle owns, your bias must be kicking in again. You are having mirages. I'll give you low-populated blocks might not be ''ghetto'', but every neighborhood is. Look at the crime-index in every neighborhood and tell me if I'm wrong. John Street Sylvester Johnson has no control over their city what so ever.

It doesn't matter. That city has a culture of crime. It's always been horrible. People don't leave. You're grandmother wasn't the only empty nest. Of course, you wouldn't think there is anything cowardly about it, because your family did it. Maybe if your family stayed there, you'd feel differently. Your family lost their individualism. Philadelphia was in your family. Now it's not.

I'm not a coward because I didn't leave anything. The place I left was trash. My ancestors were cowards for leaving Brooklyn. They were more of cowards than your ancestors ever will be because the neighborhood they came from wasn't even dangerous. My grandparents left Boro Park because they wanted to own a home at 24. They moved to Eltingville. They moved in 1962. They made decent money. They could have made it in Brooklyn just fine. They were just impatient and scared of ''change.''

I didn't say all of Delaware and Chester country was trash. If you read my quote, you'd know I said what ever is nice costs a lot of money. Do you think you're going to live nice there cheaply? That would defeat the purpose of moving there versus any other suburb than. You'd actually be hurting yourself because you'd probably be in a poor school district. When you're a middle-aged man who moves far away just for the price of a home, you lose all your individualism.

Once again, no neighborhood was ''nice'' in Philadelphia 10 years ago. Maybe nice to you has different standards. I'm not blaming these people wanting to hold on and protect there neighborhoods. I'm saying it is horrible to be in that position altogether. Why would you want anything to do with that? It's like you're optionally entering controversy in a pathetic attempt to give your future family ''flavor.'' That flavor wouldn't even be natural anyway, because you're from Philadelphia (not NYC).

You didn't grow up in a white neighborhood to New York standards. A neighborhood being like 16 percent black is fairly moderate in New York City. Compared to Philadelphia, that's minimal. Especially for that low of a price. There is no culture because so many have either integrated, left or evolved. It's all a wash now. Again, you must be seeing mirages if you think is there is individualized culture for white christians in major cities in 2007.

Here comes your bias again. You've completely disregarded blacks again on your statement about saying south Philadelphia's identity was given by Italians. It is more black there than it is Italian. For Italian-Americans, it's important. Not every person is of that background. Just because it doesn't seem that black to Philadelphia doesn't mean that isn't the dominating face of the neighborhood.

There are no ''white'' lower-middle class parts of south Philadelphia. (wait so it's white one second, Italian another - you just can't contain both titles and expect to remain integrity - unless of course you are in you are in your own world). They are dangerous. You're from there (which is why you're bias kicked in again).

There are more ''white'' parts of Philadelphia, but they got more money. Usually having better finances coincides with lower crime. Demographics don't lie. Crime indexes don't lie. The crime index is high in south Philadelphia for all races. For whites, it's a white trash environment (like I said, I'm blunt). By the way, homicides aren't the only indicator for crime.

Where exactly do you get your information from? You can't even make a choice between if your white or Italian. You're in your own world. I use the same resources for allocating information as most of the world does. From how it sounds, you don't even use any. It sounds like you got a library in your ''own world.''

I do agree that whites in Philly are just as bad as New York when it comes to their prejudice against blacks.
I explained to you that Philadelphia is a place that a white bigot can't avoid a black man though. In New York City, that same quote could be applied to a white bigot with foreigners. The media is the key indicator for the racist culture that is harbored in New York City. Philadelphia's anchors may punch New York cops, but they don't egg on bigotry.

There is no neighborhood in NYC where white bigots can avoid immigrants (or immigrants moving into your neighborhood). That same statement applies to Philadelphia at a more enhanced level considering the poverty half of them live in. If you were an intelligent man with intellect you wouldn't get mad at ''groups.'' You need an out for the bad taste you are left in your mouth with Philadelphia. Truthfully though, an educated man would know better than to generalize. Your family had bad luck in a city of disgrace. What did you expect? Don't blame society of groups for that.

You don't have to say his/her because I'm a guy. My name is Tom. By the way, I'm happy you don't do drugs. I hope you don't raise your kid to be a bigot in an environment you were never natural to though. You may think of it as a joke, but pray you don't get a girl if you end up on the south shore.

[nyc0127]

Hello, JRock247. Apparently if you acknowledge the civil service back-bone of Staten Island, than you realize it's no so middle-class after all. Civil-service employees are working-class. The friend you have may have been good people. The only way you can understand a place is if you live in it.

It's very likely they weren't from the south shore. Staten Island is tolerable (not preferable). The south shore is the haven for a lower-middle class uneducated white bigot who wants to live around their own kind and never see outside the box. I severely down that is the back bone of the town you live in prissy Long Island. More people out there graduate and become independent. Less people out there are bigots (and if they are, they know when to keep their mouths shut).

Why do you guys get the impression that I hate civil service employees? I hate the ones who abuse the system and get greedy. Being a cop, fireman, teacher, sanitation or transit worker is honorable. However, you shouldn't just limit your capabilities in life to ''civil service.'' If a person's plan, move to Cuba or India. You belong no where near New York City. This is the real world. The big boys might keep the little boys a warmed chair, but it doesn't mean you are taken seriously by them.

No one should say they can't handle anything except for a mommy. People are made out to be cops, fireman and teachers. If you can't handle more than the generalization of the civil-service world and look to leach the system for what it's worth, than you're the one losing out. You're the one who is having your individualism stolen. You're the one who will never understand literature or science.

If these south shore leaches were appreciative and weren't so reluctant to accepting the reality, than it would be okay. These parents want to convince their children they live in the real world though. They are hostile and ready for controversy. They do their best to pump up their pitiful ego. I descend from one of them. I felt the need to take the initiative to put there pathetic realization into perspective. Someone needed to put them in there place.

You seem to overlook what I've said. Stop comparing Staten Island to NYC. Start comparing it to suburbs like the one you live in. Look up the crime index, drug usage and foreclosure rates for yourself. I'm not making this stuff up. These are facts.

Lastly, jinx myself? I'd rather push carts at Shop rite for a living than join the NYPD. I'd rather live in a cave. I've given thought about becoming a police officer, social worker and teacher. I wouldn't do it in NYC though. If I were to join civil service, I'd do it the right way. I'd work for the government to really show all those dopey faced NYPD cops who really is intimidating.

[Jrock247]

Ummmmm.....wow........ Seriously, did you just blow and entire 8ball? Most of the foreclosures on staten island are on the North Shore btw. I can't find the map right now but they had one on the NYtimes page thats better than this http://theboard.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/

Civil service can be a middle class occupation, with seniority you can make about $100k which isn't bad.

As for my prissy LI town, it was alot of families of cops, teachers, fireman and social workers. There were parts of town with doctors and lawyers, but not my area.

Its really pitiful how much time you've wasted on a subject no one cares about. Yeah theres guido's on staten island, whoopdi do. At least the girls are hot.

Your rambling incoherent diatribe makes it very clear why you had a tough time growing up in staten island. Your bat**** nutty. Gooodnite

[nyc0127]

How am I ignorant? I acknowledge that CSI is a 4 year school. Just because it's a university doesn't mean it isn't also classified as a community college. In New York City, they have made their community colleges 4 years to make it more affordable to get by. As opposed to if you go to a 2 year college, if you from a ''real'' university it will look a lot better in the competitive world.

There is also a way to get by economically. If I wanted to do that, I'd end up in the Richard Stockton College of New Jersey in a couple years. In the business world though, it's competitive. When you're going up against people from colleges like Rutgers, it doesn't look that good. I have respect for CSI. It's a good school. It's on the better end of community colleges. Generally, any city-based university system means that it will be a below average university though.

I don't see you showing me a whole lot of proof to your quotes either. The more southern end of the south shore is closer to Monmouth county. It's a common place to move because of it's affluence. I know that isn't the only area. If you grew up where I did, the hearsay you'd come around would probably be more similar.
More of the educated and all do remain in Staten Island. However, for the educated it's a popular spot. For the uneducated, places such as Old Bridge are common. Go around and survey for yourself.

I do know what neighborhoods comprise of the south shore. Great Kills is on the border of the south shore. It's barely the south shore. The development came about earlier than most areas on the south shore. They're also on the border of the district that separates New Dorp and Tottenville High School's school districts.

Well gee, I think we both knew that it's a borough of New York City. That's a technicality though. If you're cheap, want to feel special because you technically live in NYC and have the patience to endure outward racism, than Staten Island may just be for you.

The reason why Staten Island is being compared to the rest of the city is because it's criteria is completely irrelevant to a major city. It is a way of getting around comparing to affluent surrounding suburbs. If they did compare it to their affluent suburban neighbors, where would it really rank?

I think we all are on the same page about Staten Island not being a paradise. It seems you'd be happy if it was mediocre at best. As a whole, Staten Island is below average. It isn't by a whole lot though. I'd tell people the same thing about Perth Amboy and Metuchen. It can be done, but it's not recommendable.

The best neighborhoods on Staten Island (excluding Todt Hill) are mediocre. Westerleigh is an example of that. Why would you want to settle for a place that would generously be mediocre though?

They lack the tax revenue other places have because it's not it's own city. They lack good public education and are neglected by the city. The rest of the city gives them little recognition. It is a place that has many problems. I'm sure even for those who consider Staten Island to be an average place, you still would agree the south shore is below that. I'm not the only one who has criticized it on here. Many people who have written on this forum are not fond of the south shore. If any of you settle for Staten Island, stay as far away from the south shore as you possibly can.

[nyc0127]

Listen, go to Mead's post on page 4. He presented the foreclosure map. Staten Island is high in foreclosure. If you don't believe, you are out of your mind. People on the south shore have a reputation for not managing there finances well. They lease out expensive cars and try to live it up for the day.

As others points out on here, they live above their means. There credit card debt is high. There are bad financial problems in Staten Island. By the way, that article you showed me is the perfect reprentation of the egged on bigotry in the New York City media. It's like you can never get away from the topic of ''race.'' I don't understand why race or color has to be involved with the foreclosure rate of New Yorkers. It really baffles me.

No one seems to openly oppose the theory I've presented that New York City has a racist infrastructure that loves egging it on. Don't be suprised if you see an article in the Daily News about how many teaches are ''white'', but how so few students are in the board of ed.

Civil service can be middle class under certain circumstances. If both the husband and wife make the same salary they can. Many people in Staten Island don't meet that criteria. In Long Island, life is more expensive. The taxes and real estate are higher. Long Island is affluent. Even if you're neighborhood isn't that ''prissy'', it'd still be decent compared to any place on Staten Island.

Every place has a lot of civil-service oriented people. Not more than 1/4 of your men though. The reason why they do there jobs are different. Honestly, teachers all over do it usually because they want to (they have to have a bachelor's degree and in NYC usually a master's degree). Social workers are underpaid everywhere too. Police officers in Long Island get paid more. They hire less. They're is a very picky process. As high as you might believe it is in your town, it's nothing compared to Staten Island.

People on the south shore did it in the 1980's because it was an easy job to get. They wanted ''protection.'' They wanted to know that even if they weren't good at their jobs or didn't like it, they'd always have a guaranteed paycheck. In America (especially Long Island), people depend on their skills to determine their salaries and advance their careers. That is what business and sales is all about.

If you have been following my post about Staten Island, you'd know I don't consider anyone guidos. Your heritage doesn't live in the suburbs (especially if your ancestors cowardly left Brooklyn). There are only so many bags you can carry. The girls are hot. However, if the guys are on drugs and love alcohol. I wonder what it is for the girls. They got to keep their guys happy. The girls might be good for me and you. If you're a father though, it's your worst nightmare.

It's difficult to imagine myself having such a rough time on Staten Island, considering I never smoked pot or spiked my hair up like a wierdo. My rambling has nothing to do with Staten Island. I been talking about multiple subjects (i.e. Philly) on here. Too many people on here are not on the same page. That is why things are confusing.

If Staten Island were such a recommendable place, than why will you probably never end up here? You're like one of those parents who support gay people's rights, yet would freak out if their children ever were.

[nyc0127]

I think many of us have come to a common understanding that Staten Island is a lower-middle class suburb. Or if you compare it to the city, an awkward paradox that should just be considered a suburb. I think all of us are sick of the outward racism on the south shore. I think most of us agree that it is the least preferred part of the island (outside of dangerous areas on the North shore).

I'm done writing for the night. I'll respond to who ever responded to me tomorrow. Good night everyone.

[Marc Oh!]

In response to Tom/NYC0127's post to me,

Listen kid, I'm done arguing with you. I can sit here and prove you wrong all day and write another page-long post, but I've got a job and lead a fairly busy life. Plus this thread isn't about Philly. Sorry to everyone, especially the original poster, that it got so knocked off course

I'll leave you with this:
1) When I make a good argument, you sure know how to spin the conversation around and sometimes even put words in my mouth. By the way, I get my facts from what I see, my experiences, and also things I read and hear. On this topic in particular (Philly), I'm mostly going on first-hand experience and actually knowing (not reading) what I am talking about.

2) I really don't know where you get your information from about Philly. You READ about it. You sound like a person who has stepped foot in the city a handful of times. You seem like the person who reads alot, and good for you. You seem to be a bright person, once you started making clear logical, grammatically correct statements. Someday I just hope you realize you don't know as much as you think you do. For example, you think you knew my grandmother left where she did b/c of financial trouble. Much of your logic is VERY flawed. You seem to be a good debator but what's behind it is pure bs or just selective facts.

3) And this one is my favorite one. I love how people criticize others of generalizing or being a bigot, but then it's ok to do the same thing yourself. You say an educated man wouldn't generalize and that if I had intelligence I wouldn't get mad at "groups". But then you generalize and say the whites in Philly are white trash, every neighborhood there is ghetto, plus your comments about the FDNY, NYPD, etc. And you're the one who seems to be mad at a group (many people in SI).

4) I like SI and think it's an ok place to raise a kid. I know it a little, but you obviously know it better than me, so I'm really not picking any fights on that one. You, on the other hand (who knows A LOT less about Philly than I do) don't know how to keep your mouth shut on things you know little about. There's a reason my very first post on this site was in response to you, b/c you're such an annoying know-it-all who thinks he can educate and enlighten the world. And you are a disgrace to your family. Do you even get along with them? You seem to have some sort of disdain for them.

Oh and you can't blame the whites you call cowards for moving from one place to another to get to what they think will be a better environment. It's called trying to achieve a better quality of life.

And...yes I am both white and Italian. Saying Italian is a further classification of being white. I never said being white and being Italian were 2 different things (once again, you were putting words in my mouth). Most of my life I considered myself white and in my naivete I thought most whites were similar, I though the only difference was that I got a little tanner than my friends at the pool and I had a vowel at the end of my name. When I got older I realized Italians, while still being white, are a bit different than other white groups. Aside from the food (which is still a major part of out culture), and wiseguy-wanna-be act of some, we do have a culture that involves things other than gold chains and Godfather DVDs. I guess you don't realize that.

This post turned out to be longer than I wanted it to be and wasted even more of my time than I thought it would, but if I responded to all the BS you write, I might be here all day, so I'm going to stop now. Respond if you want, but I think I'm done. Have fun in South Jersey and don't go out in Wildwood or Atlantic City clubs or you might run into us mob-movie quoting, loudmouth bigots from Philly and NYC that you hate so much. I'll be the one with the orange tan slapping my girlfriend (it'll probably stick to her face b/c of all the gel still on my hand). Come say hi, I'll buy you a beer.

[MattSiggs]

What did I say in my post? I do not attend a community college. CSI has a separate community college. It is not a community college, but a senior college of the CUNY system. You're reading people's posts, but you're not comprehending them. Tell me, what community college offers Masters' degrees?

Again, what statistic do you have to show that CUNY is a below-average university? I don't need to show my references because I didn't throw out any facts, I simply contended your facts, and I still haven't seen any concrete sources.

Again with Monmouth county, yet I'm still left without a source.

The bottom half of your post to me was based purely on opinion. I don't care to compare it to surrounding neighborhoods, because I like where I am. I'm content with Staten Island. If I'm happy, why change?

What problem does Staten Island have that makes it so below-average? All the problems you cited with it exist across the rest of the country. Sure, if you're cherry picking what counties to compare it with, then it may look worse. You said you lived decently in your first post, yet you claim it's a below-average place to live? You're not making any sense.

How exactly does Staten Island have a poor educational system, when the whole nation has complaints about education? You think the educational system is any better in the other boroughs or Jersey? That's not just a Staten Island problem, but a nation-wide problem. Same can be said for drugs.

What you're basically doing when someone disagrees with you is reading their posts, regurgitating the same information you did before, and then you say we all somehow came to acknowledge your point and we're all in agreement.

[proroc]

My views on Staten Island/nyc's posts. I'm in my early twenties, half Irish/Italian and live on the north shore of Staten Island. I find the anti-civil service posts to be someone condescending. My father worked for the nypd for 35 years and I don't consider him a "loser" or "leach". Regarding Staten Island, it was a nice place up to around 10 years ago. SI is still better than the other boroughs, however, it has become overpopulated and the quality of life is declining. Lately it has become somewhat of a cesspool filled with "wiggers" and Soprano wannabes. The traffic is becoming unbearable and the roads are in horrible condition. I do prefer north shore neighborhoods such as Sunset Hill, Silver Lake, Randall Manor and Westerleigh over the south shore.
On the subject of racism, whites are more likely to be attacked by minorities, although it is never classified as a hate crime. There are many recent examples of these incidents.

[nyc0127]

I never invited you to arguing with me. It's amazing how you this I should have been privileged to have spoken to you. You act like you had any argument. It's one thing for you to insinuate I shouldn't talk about Philadelphia because you've had first hand experience. If that were true, than you'd be a hypocrite to insinuate that you know more than myself about Staten Island.
You aren't the only one with a life in here. If you're free time was so precious to you, why would you be writing on an internet forum? You're writing some of your messages during when most of America is working so don't kid yourself on how busy you really are.

We both went on with the Philly discussion. Who are you apologizing too? The original poster is probably happy that I gave this forum some damn life. No one posted on this board for 5 1/2 months. What argument did you have on either discussion though? The demographics and crime indexes of Philly are there. It's factual that more than half of Philadelphia's white people can't bring in more than 35 thousand a year.

You couldn't make an argument against the fact New York's media eggs on racism. You're trying to tell people that those cheap disgusting row homes are ''nice.'' You take the notion of blaming your problems on ''those people.'' If your family couldn't accumulate one person to at least attempt college over the last 100 years, than that was your family's problem. Your family is uneducated. So is mine.

That isn't ''those peoples'' fault. You refuse to be a man and just admit that families like ours were on the lowest pedestal compared to white America. It doesn't mean they aren't good people. They are good people. In this day of age, your class isn't judged on how good of a person you are. It's judged on how successful you are. I really wish it wasn't like that. It is though.

This is a problem for all uneducated inner-city whites (south shore's Brooklyn descendants in the 60's and your family in the 80's or 90's). There are two roads they can go down. They could either scapegoat to criticizing lower-class blacks to make themselves feel superior. They could avoid the real problem. Or they could evolve. No ''trust fund'' educated white man would belittle a person for something they couldn't control. It doesn't mean they want anything to do with them. In there eyes, if they presented themselves with outward racism, educated whites would consider them trashy.

It's actually normal for white people our age in America for their dad's to have graduated college. Philadelphia is behind. The south shore of Staten Island is behind. Both of those places are dumps. That is the reason why neither one of us live where we grew up anymore. Awkwardly, you live near where I grew up now and I live near where you grew up.

You aren't the only one with a life in here. If you're free time was so precious to you, why would you be writing on an internet forum? You're writing some of your messages during when most of America is working so don't kid yourself on how busy you really are.

No one cares if you get your experience from what you see or your experiences. We weren't there. You are too bias. You came to the conclusion that every white person in Philadelphia had either Italian or Irish in them and are catholic. That is bias ignorance. Neither background is the predominate European ethnicity in that city (Germans are). There are many religious minorities (Jews, Muslims) who have never inter-married with Catholics also refuting your argument. If you combined Italians (6.7%) and Irish (about 8%), they only accumulate 1/3 of Philadelphia's white population. For you to even believe Irish self-identification still lives today (which hasn't for a very long time) proves how much of a world of your own you live in.

I'm not saying first hand experience isn't valuable. It's much of what I've based my information on Staten Island. You have to use facts to prevent elevated levels of bias though. As bias as I may sound sometimes, I still prove myself with data (i.e. civil service statistics, drug usage rates, foreclosures, percent of children who receive reduced lunch). You have to do a better job at mixing facts into your arguments so you actually hold a chance at winning one.

I don't know your grandmother, so how am I suppose to know her finances? You told me she only got 60K and has a large mortgage now though. You didn't make it sound like she was doing well. You try to deny that she's has bad luck. The market can be a guessing game sometimes. Moving out of Philadelphia would have been economical as much as it would have been a safety concern. In NYC, the economic side of the story would be rare.

There is a difference between an intentional group and a group. I criticize individuals who create groups. I criticize societies. I don't criticize someone for being a black resident in Philadelphia. On the other hand, an individual can control joining the Sanitation department as a way of avoiding having to enter the real world. That individual can control that. If a black male commits a crime, I'd criticize him as a criminal. To judge someone for being white or black is pitiful.

The only reason why I said whites were ''white trash'' in Philadelphia was because you tried making them sound ''classy.'' I shouldn't have said white trash. I should have said Philadelphia is a city of human trash. It doesn't matter if you're white or black in that city. Those individual human beings have the chance to do anything with their lives they want. Those individuals chose to create that environment. That was controlled.

Ironically, I put Philadelphia on a higher esteem than Staten Island. Philadelphia has a lot of good there is to appreciate. The suburbs seem to have an equally distinctive unification. You are right that you know more than Philadelphia. In your first post though, you took the initiative to engage in an argument about the class of Staten Island.

I never said anything bad about Philadelphia because you started talking. I actually complemented it's media. You actually took the initiative to start talking trash about Philadelphia. You seem just as disappointed with Philadelphia as I am with Staten Island. I guess the trade somewhat worked for us.

I told people on here that I live in a suburb of Philly. I would not go picking a fight on a Philadelphia forum. I'm not a bully or trouble maker. I'm more of a guy who aggressively puts sense to an issue. Kind of like a Bill Maher or Glenn Beck. So, it wouldn't surprise me if the readers on this post are split on how they feel about me. I expect some to like what I say. I expect some to think I'm an annoying know it all.

I'm not trying to educate or enlighten the world. I wouldn't call a little advice to a few people who are looking to chose a place in NYC area that. I'd know Staten Island as well as anyone else. I know a lot of in-detail information about the island. I'm telling them to stay away from the island if they have any common sense. Just because you're surviving doesn't mean you're living. If they love their children, they can do better than Staten Island.

I get along with my family just fine. We can butt heads sometimes. It's better than the normal 19 year old kid who takes interest in nothing more than going through the motions in life. You have to be a little cocky and stubborn to get by. How many 19 year old kids would have the interest, knowledge or endurance I have to keep up with all you guys over the past week?

I agree that there is nothing wrong with trying to give your family a life. You have to understand that price for the better or the worst though. When you give your family a better life, it's often a different life. It's not a continuation. That is why I say you can't carry that many bags. You believe in magic though. You believe white people throughout urban America identify by their individual background(s).

You don't put things into perspective. When your family left Philadelphia, they lost their flavor and individualism. They lost what there ancestors endured for the past century. I'm not saying if they stayed there would have been much left to appreciate. I'm saying they lost their individualism though. Now there is nothing that makes them any different than suburban white America. That applies to yourself as well.

Bensonhurst is never going to be inside you. It's a place for you to affordably reside. Your family doesn't know any families from there. You know little about the history. All you know is that if you looked in the white pages you'd see a lot of ''Italian'' names. If that is what you live for, you're pathetic.

You can't be white and Italian. Get out of that mirage. It's either you're one or the other. Technically I'd be wrong. Socially, I'd be right. Americans don't live by technicalities. Your heritage has little acknowledgement in this country. There have been societal influences. That is for the history books. There is no more individualism though. You can't take pride in being ''white'' and be respected in this country.

You seem to believe you can. The culture of America doesn't support that. The only whites who put pride in being white are inferior to the rest of their race. They are less educated, wealthy and successful. That is why places like the south shore of Staten Island and the deep south have unintellectual reputations.

As one pointed out on here, assimilation is death. Historically speaking, Italian heritage is there. Individually speaking, it's gone (unless you are an Italian in or from Italy). Americans think with there eyes. They barely know or care for anyone. Part of an ethnic identity is society immediately acknowledging that you are what you are. Society doesn't for any American-born white Christian.

I don't need to put words in your mouth. I'm telling you the reality. Truthfully, most ''Italians'' don't even get tanner at the pool during the summer. That is a bias mirage. You are the one putting words in my mouth for insinuating that I'd consider gold chains and Godfather DVD's Italian culture. I don't consider that Italian culture. I don't acknowledge Italian-American individualism. I believe for who ever believes it is in a dreamer who has not seen enough of America.

Italian culture is an amazing culture. It exists in history books. It exists in the culinary world. It just doesn't exist in individual people in this country. It exists in Italy. If you want to truly appreciate the beauty of Italian culture, Italy is the only place to do that. If you depend on an unintellectual 50 year old in Bensonhurst with more wrinkles on his forehead than a waffle iron, than you need to snap into reality.

Stop having this mirage about Bensonhurst or the south shore of Staten Island. You could make an incredible grandmother. You actually believe that ''white ethnic groups'' still exist. You remind me of that stupid grandmother from Malcomb in the Middle. You need to open your eyes and realize what world you live in. If you enjoy flicking through the white pages, you'll be in love with both. If you consider either one of those places of any culture, than you need to get a better understanding of what true culture is.

I'm in Atlantic City all the time (I hope none of you actually thought they card people there). I never see them.
Where in the hell are you getting these mirages? Honestly, the only way I'm going to know someone is from Philadelphia or NYC there is if they tell me. Usually, the cities tend to be a lot less white than the surrounding areas that produce people. Typically, if you were a rational person and thought about New York City or Philadelphia resident, you wouldn't think about a white person who believes in Jesus.

Don't let the Mets or Yankees games fool you. They purposely show the little white baby eating ice cream to try to make it look more innocent. Almost no people from Philadelphia attend their own sporting events (it's not like they got any money ; almost every worker at Phillies games are black - yet so few fans).

Movies like Sybil and TV shows like Law and Order do it all the time. They give the impression that the all-American white Protestant is the dominating figure of the work force of New York City. They give them names like Jones or Smith that almost no white people in this city have. Does anyone question it though? No. Why would they? It'd make them feel less white if they challenged whiter people.

By the way, I wouldn't want you to buy me a beer. You can use it all. It seems to be the thing that is keep you in your own little world.