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Old 05-29-2012, 12:16 PM
 
2,821 posts, read 2,290,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoking66 View Post
Considering the Census completely messed up NYC, particularly Queens, I wouldn't be surprised if the income errors come from that data. Didn't it say that Jackson Heights grew by some fractional percent in ten years? If so, probably only that fractional percent (aka higher-income people) bothered to fill out the form and distorted the results. Just a guess.

It's looks very suspicious.

So the areas closer to Manhattan, where usually rents and groceries are more expensive is where most of the (non-project resident) low-income people of Queens live?

Sounds about right....
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
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Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
It's looks very suspicious.

So the areas closer to Manhattan, where usually rents and groceries are more expensive is where most of the (non-project resident) low-income people of Queens live?

Sounds about right....
I don't know why you find this suspicious as there is a simple explanation.These neighborhoods have become filled with young transplants, aka hipsters,many of whom earn little and some of whom earn nothing.The same phenomenon pertains to Williamsburg.Many work only part time,many work for no pay as "interns",some get checks from mommy and daddy.Yes,they live in these "close in" neighborhoods where rents are steep and groceries are more expensive but they are often living sort of like immigrant families with 3 and 4 people inhabiting an apartment designed for two or 6 or 7 people living in a space designed for maybe 3 or 4.Their whole lifestyle is based on sharing and thereby paying very low rent.

I know this because until recently I lived in north side Williamsburg and it was sort of a joke how only a few of us in my old neighborhood really worked full time for a living.

The incomes for these neighborhoods( and all neighborhoods) were taken from cross referencing zip codes with actual income tax returns,not self reporting or estimates.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bluedog2 View Post
I don't know why you find this suspicious as there is a simple explanation.These neighborhoods have become filled with young transplants, aka hipsters,many of whom earn little and some of whom earn nothing.The same phenomenon pertains to Williamsburg.Many work only part time,many work for no pay as "interns",some get checks from mommy and daddy.Yes,they live in these "close in" neighborhoods where rents are steep and groceries are more expensive but they are often living sort of like immigrant families with 3 and 4 people inhabiting an apartment designed for two or 6 or 7 people living in a space designed for maybe 3 or 4.Their whole lifestyle is based on sharing and thereby paying very low rent.

I know this because until recently I lived in north side Williamsburg and it was sort of a joke how only a few of us in my old neighborhood really worked full time for a living.

The incomes for these neighborhoods( and all neighborhoods) were taken from cross referencing zip codes with actual income tax returns,not self reporting or estimates.
Sunnyside, Wooside and LIC are hardly hipster neighborhoods. Astoria might be a little, but not even close to the level of Williamsburg.

Also Williamsburg might show lower income (as a whole) due to the fact that there's a large Jewish orthodox population who relies heavily on govm't assistance. There's also a good amount of projects and old timers living in rent-controlled apts, so I'm not sure you're using a valid analogy there.

Lastly, if you notice, the neighborhoods in the website are lumped together.
South Ozone park is lumped with Howard beach, Flushing with Whitestone, Rego Park with Forest hills, and so on.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
Sunnyside, Wooside and LIC are hardly hipster neighborhoods. Astoria might be a little, but not even close to the level of Williamsburg.

Also Williamsburg might show lower income (as a whole) due to the fact that there's a large Jewish orthodox population who relies heavily on govm't assistance. There's also a good amount of projects and old timers living in rent-controlled apts, so I'm not sure you're using a valid analogy there.

Lastly, if you notice, the neighborhoods in the website are lumped together.
South Ozone park is lumped with Howard beach, Flushing with Whitestone, Rego Park with Forest hills, and so on.
Don't know why you are having such a hard time accepting something so obvious.Forget the term hipster because that appears to be a stumbling block for you.
Most of the Queens and Brooklyn neighborhoods that have witnessed large influxes of transplants in the last 10 or 15 years have higher concentrations of young,single lower or no income households.Long Island City actually started experiencing this influx 10 years before Astoria.You spend as much time as anyone on this site so you should be fully aware of all the unemployed and under employed young single people flocking into these areas from around the country.It's been going on for a long,long time now.The further out neighborhoods you are referencing have higher concentrations of middle aged double income households.Fully employed middle aged workers tend to have higher incomes than younger workers and 2 income households tend to have higher household incomes than single person households.
Why do you find it surprising that the household incomes are higher in neighborhoods with older full time workers living in 2 income households than in neighborhoods with large concentrations of young single dreamers who really can't afford to pay more than 700/mo to keep a roof over their heads ?

Re Williamsburg: As I said,I lived on the North side.No projects at all and very few Hassids and almost no old people living in rent controlled apartments.They are all on the South Side.You see Hassids walking around on the North Side because they still own all the buildings but they don't live there.They come to collect the rent.The north side is completely hipsterfied and a large percentage of them have very low earned,reportable income.They may have income from under the table work or an allowance from mom and dad but that doesn't show up on income tax forms.Many live in cubicles without windows or closets in the interior of fire trap lofts with 1 bathroom and 1 refrigerator for 6 people and work as little as possible while pursuing their dreams.They pay $3,500/mo for the loft and split it 6 or 7 ways.In places like Astoria and Woodside they don't have lofts but they take a 1 or 2 br apartment,put up dividing walls and get 4 people in. Same effect.If it weren't for these types of immigrant like living arrangements they could not afford to live in NYC at all. Really nothing wrong with that but don't be expecting the neighborhood to pop up on a high household income list with so many low and no income filers..I will admit however that Williamsburg North Side has recently begun to have an influx of actual high income people which is something that hasn't happened at all yet in places like Astoria and Sunnyside or Woodside.So there is hope there for higher household incomes in the 2020 census.

Last edited by bluedog2; 05-29-2012 at 03:24 PM..
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Old 05-29-2012, 04:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog2 View Post
Don't know why you are having such a hard time accepting something so obvious.Forget the term hipster because that appears to be a stumbling block for you.
Most of the Queens and Brooklyn neighborhoods that have witnessed large influxes of transplants in the last 10 or 15 years have higher concentrations of young,single lower or no income households.Long Island City actually started experiencing this influx 10 years before Astoria.You spend as much time as anyone on this site so you should be fully aware of all the unemployed and under employed young single people flocking into these areas from around the country.It's been going on for a long,long time now.The further out neighborhoods you are referencing have higher concentrations of middle aged double income households.Fully employed middle aged workers tend to have higher incomes than younger workers and 2 income households tend to have higher household incomes than single person households.
Why do you find it surprising that the household incomes are higher in neighborhoods with older full time workers living in 2 income households than in neighborhoods with large concentrations of young single dreamers who really can't afford to pay more than 700/mo to keep a roof over their heads ?

Re Williamsburg: As I said,I lived on the North side.No projects at all and very few Hassids and almost no old people living in rent controlled apartments.They are all on the South Side.You see Hassids walking around on the North Side because they still own all the buildings but they don't live there.They come to collect the rent.The north side is completely hipsterfied and a large percentage of them have very low earned,reportable income.They may have income from under the table work or an allowance from mom and dad but that doesn't show up on income tax forms.Many live in cubicles without windows or closets in the interior of fire trap lofts with 1 bathroom and 1 refrigerator for 6 people and work as little as possible while pursuing their dreams.They pay $3,500/mo for the loft and split it 6 or 7 ways.In places like Astoria and Woodside they don't have lofts but they take a 1 or 2 br apartment,put up dividing walls and get 4 people in. Same effect.If it weren't for these types of immigrant like living arrangements they could not afford to live in NYC at all. Really nothing wrong with that but don't be expecting the neighborhood to pop up on a high household income list with so many low and no income filers..I will admit however that Williamsburg North Side has recently begun to have an influx of actual high income people which is something that hasn't happened at all yet in places like Astoria and Sunnyside or Woodside.So there is hope there for higher household incomes in the 2020 census.
Well it's not obvious, for obvious reasons.
If these areas are where "low income" people live, then it's not obvious why so many new businesses are catering to them with expensive organic foods, well decorated restaurants, and cozy coffee shops. Following that logic, most of those places should be opening around Jamaica and eastern Queens, but they are not.
And like I said before, the demographics of Williamsburg hardly resemble those of LIC, Sunnyside and Astoria, I don't understand why you're trying to make an analogy when clearly it's not the same.
And again, Williamsburg, (call it north, south, west, whatever) it's dragged down income-wise for the reasons I mentioned above.
Don't know why you are having such a hard time accepting something so obvious.
All the people I know who have moved to western Queens neighborhoods are young professionals, making close to 6 figures. I don't know of ANY low income transplant/hispter or whatever you wanna call it who has moved to LIC to live like an immigrant with several other people. Nor would I expect all the new luxury buildings catering to them. It just doesn't make sense.
Anyway, so much for anecdotal evidence. Hopefully someone could get a data-set of neighborhoods and take it from there.
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Old 05-29-2012, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
6,451 posts, read 10,832,709 times
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Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
Well it's not obvious, for obvious reasons.
If these areas are where "low income" people live, then it's not obvious why so many new businesses are catering to them with expensive organic foods, well decorated restaurants, and cozy coffee shops. Following that logic, most of those places should be opening around Jamaica and eastern Queens, but they are not.
And like I said before, the demographics of Williamsburg hardly resemble those of LIC, Sunnyside and Astoria, I don't understand why you're trying to make an analogy when clearly it's not the same.
And again, Williamsburg, (call it north, south, west, whatever) it's dragged down income-wise for the reasons I mentioned above.
Don't know why you are having such a hard time accepting something so obvious.
All the people I know who have moved to western Queens neighborhoods are young professionals, making close to 6 figures. I don't know of ANY low income transplant/hispter or whatever you wanna call it who has moved to LIC to live like an immigrant with several other people. Nor would I expect all the new luxury buildings catering to them. It just doesn't make sense.
Anyway, so much for anecdotal evidence. Hopefully someone could get a data-set of neighborhoods and take it from there.
The households in areas of Queens further West do not have as much disposable income.They may have higher household incomes because there are two people working full time but they are spending it all on mortgages and children.Not much left over for bars,going out and organic food stores.

Remember,a double income married couple = 1 household,a single person= 1 household.Neighborhoods with mostly 2 income families and very few singles will almost always have higher household incomes than neighborhoods with a higher proportion of single( one income) "households".

There is already a data set,it's what started this thread.
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bluedog2 View Post
The households in areas of Queens further West do not have as much disposable income.They may have higher household incomes because there are two people working full time but they are spending it all on mortgages and children.Not much left over for bars,going out and organic food stores.

Remember,a double income married couple = 1 household,a single person= 1 household.Neighborhoods with mostly 2 income families and very few singles will almost always have higher household incomes than neighborhoods with a higher proportion of single "households".

There is already a data set,it's what started this thread.
The dataset on the website lumps neighborhoods together, so it doesn't give you a true picture of each neighborhood separately.
Astoria is labeled as Astoria, but if you look at it, it's lumped with LIC, and all the projects in LIC are absorbed possibly dragging down the income levels.
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
6,451 posts, read 10,832,709 times
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Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
The dataset on the website lumps neighborhoods together, so it doesn't give you a true picture of each neighborhood separately.
Astoria is labeled as Astoria, but if you look at it, it's lumped with LIC, and all the projects in LIC are absorbed possibly dragging down the income levels.
Of course the projects drag down the income level,just as a large number of single income filers will drag down the household income level.Any neighborhood with a project and or a lot of single income households is going to have the income level dragged down! If you look at the other map( the WNYC map I linked to earlier in the thread and will link again here) it breaks it down into much smaller census tracts but the map as a whole still shows the same thing.Generally,the census tracts in Queens with the lower household incomes are in the West and central,closer to Manhattan while the census tracts with the higher household incomes tend to be further East.There are a few nice purple tracts around LI City with median incomes over 100,00 but it kind of sticks out like a sore thumb as opposed to the Eastern half of the borough that is predominantly purple and blue.And individual census tracts are not neighborhoods.Like it or not, Astoria is the sum of it's parts.You should be happy that Astoria is linked with LIC because it's Astoria that's bringing LI City down,not the other way around.

It was your disbelief that this could even be possible(lower household incomes closer to Manhattan)that precipitated our whole discussion.All I ever said was that it makes perfect sense ,given certain demographics of West v East Queens and the definition of median Household income.Projects and single income households are parts of the demographics.



NYC Median Income | WNYC

Last edited by bluedog2; 05-29-2012 at 05:39 PM..
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:35 PM
 
2,821 posts, read 2,290,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog2 View Post
Of course the projects drag down the income level,just as a large number of single income filers will drag down the household income level.If you look at the other map( the WNYC map I linked to earlier in the thread and will link again here) it breaks it down into much smaller census tracts but the map as a whole still shows the same thing.Generally,the census tracts in Queens with the lower household incomes are in the West and central,closer to Manhattan while the census tracts with the higher household incomes tend to be further East.There are a few nice purple tracts around LI City with median incomes over 100,00 but it kind of sticks out like a sore thumb as opposed to the Eastern half of the borough that is predominantly purple and blue.And individual census tracts are not neighborhoods.

It was your disbelief that this could even be possible(lower household incomes closer to Manhattan)that precipitated our whole discussion.All I ever said was that it makes perfect sense given certain demographics of West v East Queens and the definition of median Household income.



NYC Median Income | WNYC
I had noticed that map.
This one gives a better picture of each neighborhood.
And it corroborates what I initially thought; All of the reddish (not pink) coloring in western Queens are housing projects.
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
6,451 posts, read 10,832,709 times
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Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
I had noticed that map.
This one gives a better picture of each neighborhood.
And it corroborates what I initially thought; All of the reddish (not pink) coloring in western Queens are housing projects.
Then why have you been arguing that the income maps made no sense because it made no sense for there to be higher median household incomes further away from Manhattan in the Eastern part of the borough ?

Even pink isn't exactly great.It indicates below the city average median income.There is a lot of it in the West and very little of it in the East.....further away from Manhattan
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