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exactly - the city is fine and all things being equal it would be great to have it in your state
however, all things are not equal when you throw politicians into the mix
decades upon decades of city centric leadership has really hurt upstate
our state paints with a brush that is way too broad, often leaving counties to hold the bag (who simply push it off to municipalities)
now you have upstate communities pretty much forced to consider selling out what charm remains to strip the hills, sell out for natural gas drilling or the large and ugly windmills that now dot the hills ....... it may be a bunch of snake oil, but it's real hard to resist the money when the state is telling you to how and where to spend while stripping down the budget and you're already taxing your residents to death as their jobs march out of state
People don't resent NYC. They resent NYC politicians
You can't get more accurate than that folks. I love NYC, and am proud to have one of the worlds largest cities in my state. But policies set for NYC are completely different. To put this into perspective, the population of NYC is *93%* higher than that of Buffalo and all squeezed into a set of islands! NYC is the financial capital of the country and holds a vast amount of wealth. NYC is arguably one of the most important cities to this country, so I doubt the state, or even the federal government is going to rock the boat.
So if the state won't change, maybe we should. Let downstate keep the existing regulations, give upstate a new set!
Last edited by cheese9988; 11-20-2009 at 09:58 PM..
No, sorry. Downstate, namely NYC, brings in most of the states revenue. Without us, you guys would be in serious financial trouble. It is downstate that funds upstate, not the other way around.
And you think your real estate prices are high? Try trying to get something decent on LI for under $350k. Can't be done.
It's true, our real estate is more affordable. But on that house that we could afford at $160k....the taxes will be over $6k, doubling the monthly payment. Our COL in this area (Rochester, don't know if you could find it on a map being from Long Island though it has the 2nd largest economy in the state and also pays out more than it gets back) is relatively low, I tell that to many of my fellow upstaters who claim it is "too expensive" to live here. But it isn't just about the cost of living, the state mandates that cause these astronomical mandates keep businesses out and really leave s sour taste in the mouth of homeowners (eventhough I agree they are still better off financially than those paying much more for homes in other parts of the country) The politicians, almost all from downstate, elected by downstate voters; place state-wide mandates that increase the tax burden on ALL new yorkers (that's right, even those of us up here in the "country" are new yorkers; although we can pronounce our R's"). And we get no say in it because we always get out voted. You don't take us seriously, because people in your region in general believes you are the "educated" part of the state and only people from around there should have a say in state-wide politics.
And to whoever it was that said upstate keeps albany...BS. The new state line would be the eastern border of Onieda County (Utica...again, I direct downstaters to a map with big red letters) stretching south to include Binghamton, and north to include Watertown. Albany, Catskills, Hudson Valley, etc...stay as New York...and we get some new Native American name like Seneca or Niagara.
Just a fantasy of course but man it would be great!
Upstate as a separate state would probably be a lot like Wisconsin:
Similar population
Similar makeup of industrial cities, small cities, farmland, and wilderness
Similar climate
A Great Lakes/Upper Midwest cultural orientation
A big world-class city just to the south
or maybe Michigan sans a Detroit like city. I believe that Upstate NY would be the 12th most populated state in the US, by the way. Here's some more info. Upstate New York - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
wow i didnt know there was so much resentment for nyc from upstate. If anything i thought upstate would be proud to have a city like that in their state. Guess i was wrong lol
What? You gotta be eating silly salad to think that. Oh, NYC hasn't been as bad lately, but for those who remember the David Dinkins Administration, it was an extreme embarrassment to even share the name...I swear!
While NYC is impressive, it is by no means indicative of that which lies North and West of the Catskills.
And if you were ever to learn your history and know just how important Upstate has been to the development of this country, you would be as sad as I am to see it lie in un-used ruins.
And if our brothers Downstate really do despise their politicians, PLEASE, vote them out and help us to get the state back on track, ousting the scoundrels who have put us in this mess!
No, sorry. Downstate, namely NYC, brings in most of the states revenue. Without us, you guys would be in serious financial trouble. It is downstate that funds upstate, not the other way around.
And you think your real estate prices are high? Try trying to get something decent on LI for under $350k. Can't be done.
I have heard this from relatives who lived and worked there over the years. It must be a continual sermon your have preached to you there. Odd though, the song and dance changes once they relocated back home and have to deal with the alternate reality of life in Upstate.
The common myth is that "Downstate" funds "Upstate" in that it sends more revenue to Albany than it receives. That's a nice way to think of it, but there is no way it can be true. The numbers must be fudged somehow.
Just consider transportation, for starters. There is no municipal transportation system which survives on the cashbox take. All your myriad systems receive support not only from the State of New York, but from the Federal dollars we send as well. And the subsidies are huge. All the public transportation systems outside downstate put together aren't as large as those you have there. And most of us have to buy gasoline and diesel with some of the highest state taxes in the nation, to help further fund the relatively cheap rides you get there. The vast majority of the Hinterland (based on area) has no public transportation access practical for daily commutes.
Sure, quote the numbers all you want, but when all the pluses and minuses are added together, benefits and costs tallied, there is no way NYC supports the balance of the state...when the "downstate" costs are accounted for honestly. At best it comes out as a wash.
You can have your fantasy, I've got mine.
Get me the raw data and I'll show you how it works.
Last edited by MuddyAxles; 12-22-2009 at 05:42 PM..
I have heard this from relatives who lived and worked there over the years. It must be a continual sermon your have preached to you there. Odd though, the song and dance changes once they relocated back home and have to deal with the alternate reality of life in Upstate.
The common myth is that "Downstate" funds "Upstate" in that it sends more revenue to Albany than it receives. That's a nice way to think of it, but there is no way it can be true. The numbers must be fudged somehow.
Just consider transportation, for starters. There is no municipal transportation system which survives on the cashbox take. All your myriad systems receive support not only from the State of New York, but from the Federal dollars we send as well. And the subsidies are huge. All the public transportation systems outside downstate put together aren't as large as those you have there. And most of us have to buy gasoline and diesel with some of the highest state taxes in the nation, to help further fund the relatively cheap rides you get there. The vast majority of the Hinterland (based on area) has no public transportation access practical for daily commutes.
Sure, quote the numbers all you want, but when all the pluses and minuses are added together, benefits and costs tallied, there is no way NYC supports the balance of the state...when the "downstate" costs are accounted for honestly. At best it comes out as a wash.
You can have your fantasy, I've got mine.
Get me the raw data and I'll show you how it works.
All you said was " I don't like the numbers so they can't be real" in long winded fashion.
Unless you have some fact (i.e. numbers) to back up you claim your just making it up.
I thought this would be an interesting topic of discussion:
Would dividing NYS into two states, Upstate and NYC, be a good idea?
If so, how should each individual state conduct it's affairs?
I was born and raised in Buffalo, and now live in NYC, so I've seen the state's economic/political nexus from both sides.
The reality is ALL political power and decision-making for NYS happens in NYC, for the benefit of NYC. And the fact is, that the economy and culture of NYC vs. Upstate are complete opposites. In NYC the top issues are 1) Affordable housing, 2) Quality of life issues (traffic, noise, etc.), and 3) The environment. In Upstate, the top three issues are 1) Economic/job growth, 1) Economic/job growth, and 3) Economic/job growth.
The two parts of the state have diametrically opposite needs. I am a devoted, small-government, Jeffersonian Libertarian, but I can see how a some 'big government' is actually necessary down here, to keep the City livable. Upstate, however, has its economy suffocated by big government.
I sincerely believe that NYS should be divided into two states, with the border cutting across the northern edge of Orange/Putnam counties. However the new state of "Upper New York" would not be successful unless it adopted small-government, low-tax policies and encouraged entreprenuership.
All posters to this thread should consult the website "Unshackle Upstate" Also, there was an article in the Buffalo News about 15 years ago proposing just that. The dividing line would run approximately along I-81, and the new state would be called "Upper York". There was also another article in which (at that time) Gov. Cuomo remarked that Buffalo's problems were unique for New York in that Buffalo has more in common with the Midwest. I say GO FOR IT! Time to get the 600 pound gorilla off Buffalo's back
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