Divide New York into Two States? (Buffalo, Syracuse: apartment, calculation, gated)

[bellafinzi]

If Upstate was its own State...

-Upstate wouldn't have kept tolls on the Thruway after the last bonds were paid off
-Upstate wouldn't choose energy policies that push basic industrial energy electric rates 17 percent above the national average
-Upstate wouldn't enact the brownfields redevelopment law which was designed to fit property values in NYC, but which made brownfield redevelopment cost-prohibitive in Upstate cities
- Upstate wouldn't create "prevailing wage" laws that impose urban/downstate wage levels on rural/Upstate construction projects
- Upstate wouldn't have tort laws which impose unlimited liability to construction contractors
- Upstate wouldn't have laws giving public-employee unions such decisive leverage to drive up local government costs and to block consolidation of services

It's all spelled out very clearly in "Let Upstate be Upstate"
http://www.ppinys.org/reports/2004/letupstate.pdf

[livecontent]

"Let Upstate be Upstate" states that "Secession would be impossible". Why??
There are no reasons given that this is impossible, it is just stated.

It is about time for a shout to be heard around the nation that will resonate the necessity and the resolve of the unrepresented and overtaxed citizen of the great State of Niagara to be independent and free, and any connection between the State of Niagara and the State of New York be totally dissolved.

[RottenChester]

I have long thought about separating the NYC region from Upstate. They really are two different worlds. NYC is booming, while Upstate is struggling. I can buy a nice colonial in Rochester or pretty much anywhere in Upstate for what it would cost to rent a closet in NYC. Taxes are extremely high but hurt Upstaters the most because we do not make as much as NYC'ers to begin with. I propose that Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse secede from New York to form the the State of West New York. Its Capital would be centrally located in Rochester. Albany is currently part of Upstate's dilemma, but for geographic reasons, and also because it already has the infrustructure to run government, it would be bound to the NYC region which will probably just be called New York or New New York. Besides Albany is already so corrupt and bought by NYC it would fit in well anyway. This applies to the NYS govt. in Albany not the people and the city itself who really are struggling and feeling the drudge of what its like to live Upstate. Its a shame the residents of Albany have to sit there and watch laws get passed in their own city that do little for their economy. The Adirondack/Thousand Island region is also a unique region that feels and knows the blight of Upstate and should either be absorbed into Vermont, become part of West New York, or form its own State of North New York, with the Capital stationed in Potsdam.

Either Way: If you look at a map of NYS, you will see it looks like the side profile of a head of a dinosaur/dragon/eagle (take your pick) facing west. NYC and Long Island are its little tail. We need to sever the head from the tail.

[UpstaterInBklyn]

Some population facts:

If you divided NYS along the northern Orange-Putnam county lines:

Upstate would have approximately 6.9 million residents, making it the 11th most populous state in the union, just ahead of Massachusetts (6.3 mil) and behind Virginia (7.6 mil)

"Downstate" would have 12.7 million residents and be ranked #5, ahead of Pennsylvania (12.4 mil) but just barely behind Illinois (12.8 mil).

[UpstaterInBklyn]

Of course, all of this is an academic exercise because it will never happen.

But let's imagine, for a moment, what might happen.

Upstate would have to create brand-new low-cost governmental structures, because it simply could not afford to operate like the old New York State. Upstate currently consumes more state revenue than it generates. (Sorry Upstaters, it's true, all of those six and seven figure incomes down here put a lot of income tax revenue into the coffers). It would still be saddled with little to no growth and population losses. Upstate metros would hopefully be able to compete with lower-cost locations.

A bonus for Upstate is that it would inherit almost all of NYS's natural beauty (except the coastline). The Adirondacks, Catskills, Finger Lakes, Niagara Falls, etc. This would make tourism in Upstate akin places like Vermont and New Hampshire: four seasons of outdoor recreation, quaint little villages, Wine Trails. NYS Tourism marketing has always tried to sell the excitement of the City and the beauty of the Country, but the rest of world only sees the Big City. Upstate could re-define itself to the nation as the beautiful natural place that it is.

Downstate, meanwhile, might choose to keep things as they are and merely move the capital down the Hudson to Manhattan. It would then have to figure out what to do with all the extra money. Public transportation and infrastructure improvements are high priorities.

[Milmann]

I don't understand this business about NYC controlling the state. It seems that any large building project, from the new World Trade Center, the plan to put a stadium over the rail yards on the west side in Midtown, the downtown Brooklyn plan and others, need approval by the state for some reason.

For every $1 in federal money coming to the city, the city gives the feds $1.25.

In view of the antipathy many in the rest of the state and the rest of the country feel towards NYC, why doesn't NYC try to do what Singapoore did? When Malaysia became independent in 1960, I believe it was, that city became an independent country, a city-state, within a few years. It has done very well by any criteria. Forget the 51st state. How about a new member of the UN, the one where the UN is located!?!

[BuffaloTransplant]

Originally Posted by FutureCop

What's the point? Without NYC, Upstate would fall to shambles.

Upstate New York, everything north of Hillary's house in Chappaqua IMO, should split off.

What do we have? Lots of less expensive homes, land and office buildings. It has always amazed me that not many companies -- given how much we can do by fax, telecommuting, video, and other methods -- have taken advantage of the lower cost of business outside of NYC. Even if just satellite offices were made in the upstate (north and west) part of the state, it would bring more business. Think of how much less the cost would be for a comapny to do business if they were not hampered by all the costs of NYC.

More businesses utilizing cheaper facilites also would create more jobs here.

Personally, as I am out in the semi-rural area, it doesn't really affect me. OTOH, I am tired of the NYC ( and environs) getting a weighted vote in the state.

[clamboy]

Originally Posted by FutureCop

What's the point? Without NYC, Upstate would fall to shambles.

Take away Long Island and NYC?
I think you guys would be effed.
(Anyone ever been to the Town of Day?...I digress)

We added a link to the LI boards

http://www.city-data.com/forum/long-...-2-states.html

Feel free to weigh in

C

[LauraC]

Originally Posted by UpstaterInBklyn

I thought this would be an interesting topic of discussion:

Would dividing NYS into two states, Upstate and NYC, be a good idea?

Throw in Westchester and Long Island (with NYC) and I think it's a great idea. Upstaters suffer from NYC politics and dominance.

Do you think you'll need a war to secede or will just a good divorce lawyer work?

[UpstaterInBklyn]

I'm glad this thread came back to life.

What do we have? Lots of less expensive homes, land and office buildings. It has always amazed me that not many companies -- given how much we can do by fax, telecommuting, video, and other methods -- have taken advantage of the lower cost of business outside of NYC. Even if just satellite offices were made in the upstate (north and west) part of the state, it would bring more business. Think of how much less the cost would be for a comapny to do business if they were not hampered by all the costs of NYC.

Actually this is the case. That is why Buffalo is considered a "back office town". Call centers, processing centers and the like make up the bulk of new jobs. Problem is, those jobs don't pay much and the decisions, based often on cost alone, are made somewhere else.

I can only speak with authority about Buffalo, but I assume similar problems exist in other Upstate cities.

Despite the heinous cost of doing business in a place like NYC (along with other top tier metros), companies locate their headquarters and other high-end operations in these big cities for a few reasons:

1. Access to talent. Ask anyone in the executive or technical recruiting biz, it is exceedingly difficult to get top talent to relocate to Buffalo. It may be unfair, because Buffalo is a great place to live - IF you can find job - but it is a reality. The best and brightest tend to prefer big cities.

2. Access to markets. Companies feed off each other in big cities. I work in Manhattan for a small company, but we have been able to gain access to big companies and well-known brand owners, as well as the press, with our NYC proximity. We're local and can meet face-to-face.

3. Access to capital. For those companies that are venture capital financed, the big money is in the big cities. Venture capitalists don't like to invest long distance.

I can only speak for Buffalo, but the problem seems to be a lack of corporate HQs and locally-based successful businesses. A back office operation rents some space and hires some people. A corporate HQ rents space, hires lots of people, including highly-paid top management, plus contracts with local businesses for high-value services like legal, accounting, advertising, etc.