Divide New York into Two States? (Buffalo, Rochester: transplants, new home, job market)

[HeadedWest]

Originally Posted by nunoco

Without the welfare from NYC, upstate would be in even worse shape.

...

As oil goes over $100 a barrel ... Upstate New York--America's Cool Belt!

There is no question that if nothing changed, upstate NY would be worse off. But if the new non-NYC state could be structured with fewer barriers to business and lower tax rates, there would be at least a chance for economic redevelopment. The regulatory and tax barriers to doing business in NY State preclude anything on a small scale. Only in and around NYC can you operate with a large enough size to absorb the punishment and still profit.

WRT to the second point, if oil is over $100/barrel and NY is the cool belt, it pretty much tells you that you're going to not have much fun heating your house all winter.

[nunoco]

Originally Posted by HeadedWest

WRT to the second point, if oil is over $100/barrel and NY is the cool belt, it pretty much tells you that you're going to not have much fun heating your house all winter.

Point taken. But shorter winters, which we're already seeing, and hydro power to heat homes (which I use) mitigate the oil rise. Nowhere's perfect, but I'd rather deal with winters here than the heat waves (and those air-conditioning bills), hurricanes and droughts of the south. I think more business owners will, too.

[Jdawg8181]

Originally Posted by UpstaterInBklyn

I thought this would be an interesting topic of discussion:

Would dividing NYS into two states, Upstate and NYC, be a good idea?

If so, how should each individual state conduct it's affairs?

I was born and raised in Buffalo, and now live in NYC, so I've seen the state's economic/political nexus from both sides.

The reality is ALL political power and decision-making for NYS happens in NYC, for the benefit of NYC. And the fact is, that the economy and culture of NYC vs. Upstate are complete opposites. In NYC the top issues are 1) Affordable housing, 2) Quality of life issues (traffic, noise, etc.), and 3) The environment. In Upstate, the top three issues are 1) Economic/job growth, 1) Economic/job growth, and 3) Economic/job growth.

The two parts of the state have diametrically opposite needs. I am a devoted, small-government, Jeffersonian Libertarian, but I can see how a some 'big government' is actually necessary down here, to keep the City livable. Upstate, however, has its economy suffocated by big government.

I sincerely believe that NYS should be divided into two states, with the border cutting across the northern edge of Orange/Putnam counties. However the new state of "Upper New York" would not be successful unless it adopted small-government, low-tax policies and encouraged entreprenuership.

Upstate New York needs downstate (namely LI & Westchester) to increase its wealth.

[Jdawg8181]

I will tell you this...

if the 2 did seperate, more upstaters would own houses than downstaters. Case in point- I am a 26 year old Long Islander who is still living at home. The average house in a decent area here costs at least $500k.

My boyfriend is orignally from upstate- he is 28 and he bought his first house @ 22 and his sister not far behind bought hers @ 24. With that said, homelessness would be a big problem for the downstaters. They would have to make more affordable housing...and truthfully we are running out of room. Yeah we have more income coming in down here, but more people I would say are homeless here than up there.

I think it would be virtually impossible for either to coexist as seperate states. Upstate needs the profits downstate brings in...and downstaters need somewhere to go b/c it's just too crowded here and too unaffordable.

[aka_mouse]

Originally Posted by Jdawg8181

Upstate New York needs downstate (namely LI & Westchester) to increase its wealth.

Why do people keep saying this? Its complete BS. Upstate NY gets no benefit from NYC .. AT ALL. Ship some ****ing money or jobs up here then talk about how we need you, otherwise, **** off. Lots of workers with the best jobs in NYC live in CT or NJ and thus dont even pay the NY taxes, who pays it? Upstate. Albany takes about 50% of the taxes Buffalo Collects.. you get only one guess as to where it gets distributed. And as you can see in other threads here Buffalo recently got ranked 2nd poorest city in the nation. We need our taxes for our own poor, not NYCs.

Id like to hear you make a serious argument about what money makes its way from NYC to Utica (probably the poorest actually), or Syracuse, or Rochester or Buffalo? Even Albany has big Ghettos - outside the state jobs they dont have **** there. NYC is a vampire on the rest of the state. Its the same for cities in England near London.

Hey NYC really is real cool , i respect that.. however - outside of that.. when it comes to economics and the general downstate arrogance that your are displaying.. cram it back up your ass. A couple ritchies buying property just outside the city dont make a difference at all.

[nunoco]

Originally Posted by aka_mouse

Why do people keep saying this? Its complete BS. Upstate NY gets no benefit from NYC .. AT ALL. Ship some ****ing money or jobs up here then talk about how we need you, otherwise, **** off. Lots of workers with the best jobs in NYC live in CT or NJ and thus dont even pay the NY taxes, who pays it? Upstate. Albany takes about 50% of the taxes Buffalo Collects.. you get only one guess as to where it gets distributed.

I don't mean to be rude, but this is just wrong. NYC pays more taxes to the state and to the federal government than it gets back in benefits. That's just a fact, and has been for 150 years, at least. And the commuters in NJ and CT do pay NY taxes. Ask them.
I agree that Albany does a poor job of distributing tax revenue; seems like most of it goes to Joe Bruno's district, or to build prisons, or (and here's one thing you should be mad about that NYC's getting) new basketball arenas.
The bigger issue? NYC and NY state send tons of tax money to Washington, and never see it again. Your quarrel is not with downstate, but with Down South. Atlanta and Raleigh and Jacksonville (and Phoenix and Dallas) are getting YOUR tax dollars, leaving Utica and Buffalo to suffer.
It's easy to be a low-tax state when you're stealing New York's taxes.

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by UpstaterInBklyn

I thought this would be an interesting topic of discussion:

Would dividing NYS into two states, Upstate and NYC, be a good idea?

If so, how should each individual state conduct it's affairs?

I was born and raised in Buffalo, and now live in NYC, so I've seen the state's economic/political nexus from both sides.

The reality is ALL political power and decision-making for NYS happens in NYC, for the benefit of NYC. And the fact is, that the economy and culture of NYC vs. Upstate are complete opposites. In NYC the top issues are 1) Affordable housing, 2) Quality of life issues (traffic, noise, etc.), and 3) The environment. In Upstate, the top three issues are 1) Economic/job growth, 1) Economic/job growth, and 3) Economic/job growth.

The two parts of the state have diametrically opposite needs. I am a devoted, small-government, Jeffersonian Libertarian, but I can see how a some 'big government' is actually necessary down here, to keep the City livable. Upstate, however, has its economy suffocated by big government.

I sincerely believe that NYS should be divided into two states, with the border cutting across the northern edge of Orange/Putnam counties. However the new state of "Upper New York" would not be successful unless it adopted small-government, low-tax policies and encouraged entreprenuership.

Sure, divide it into two states, but gives us back our money. WNY has always helped support NYC and we have never been given anything in return for it.

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by Rev1615

How long must upstate NY pay taxes to fund downstate spending? The time has come to Seperate from Albany and NYC

OK, so how do we do this? What is the first step?

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by HeadedWest

Does not Pennsylvania border the Great Lakes?

Actually Pittsburgh and Cleveland are probably the most similar cities in that region, in that they have had at least some success in transitioning out of a purely manufacturing economy.

Pittsburgh is slowly climbing back up. But at least it's growing.

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by nunoco

A fact, followed by some opinions.
First things first: it's a myth that upstate subsidizes NYC. Calculations vary, but city workers paid 45% of the state's taxes in 1992, and got 39% of the state's benefits. NYC and suburban counties essentially gave upstate $3.3 billion in 1992. That situation figures to have only gotten worse, as the city has kept booming and upstate has stagnated. Source: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.htmlres=980DE2DF1239F933A25756C0A96195826 0&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print (broken link)
Without the welfare from NYC, upstate would be in even worse shape. What would happen, for example, if all the upstate prisons closed? In some places, they provide the only decent jobs.
I lived in NYC for 17 years and now live in Plattsburgh, by choice. I think the biggest thing upstate can do is demand transportation links to NYC to make it easier for the huge population to bring its tourist dollars, and in some cases, relocate and build new businesses. High-speed rail would be a huge step, allowing for more telecommuters to help repopulate and revive the many grand old upstate communities. This is already happening in the Hudson Valley, because it's easy to get to.
The biggest problem is that upstate communities had no answer for the job drain that took place when stores like Wal-Mart demanded that all the goods they sell come from peon-labor countries like China. American manufacturing died, and upstate died with it.
I'm optimistic, though, because of global warming and rising fuel costs. People will want to live in upstate's cooler climes near its reliable supplies of fresh water (how's "booming" Atlanta look right now, btw?). As oil goes over $100 a barrel, the China/India/Central America supply chain to US malls will no longer be sustainable, and the proximity to Canada's oil wealth will be desirable. We'll be in a position to make goods locally again.
But upstate needs to quit the reflexive hatred of "The City," and instead try to harness some of NYC's riches by poaching its brainpower and tourist dollars rather than its prisoners. The state government needs to see the possibilities of this future, create an infrastructure for it, and market it.
I'll try to make a small contribution right now. I've got a slogan ready: Upstate New York--America's Cool Belt!

The first thing Buffalo needs to do it get rid of all the welfare recipients. Make it harder to get and they will go elsewhere. If the city gets cleaned up people will come back.