How much is enough in Plattsburgh? (New York, Kent: sale, cheap apartments, crime)

[snowlandcook]

Holy cow! I hadn't been to this site for a while and was susprised to see all the action! Yes, the recent posts seem to have veered from my original questions, but they still have provided a lot of relevant information.

My main concern about moving there was the TAXES, and this fear is apparently justified. My initial suspicion that taxes exceed mortgages is accurate. Sounds like utilities are sky high too.

As I asked before, how does a person afford to live there? I'm not willing to move to a smaller home than I already have (1800 square foot home on 1/2 an acre--completely paid for in 5 years). If anything, I would like to upgrade--which sounds near impossible given the cost of taxes and utilites in NY state. And you say taxes are slated to increase?! Omigosh!!

Let's take a hypothetical situation. Let's assume I land this job for $45,000 per year. (I wouldn't consider such a big move for anything less.) Let's also assume we purchase a home outside of Plattsburgh--a 2400 square foot home in a newer, nicer neighborhood, and we have a house payment (principal and interest) of $1000 per month. If property taxes are $6500 per year (that's roughly $550 per month), and utilities are $500 per month, we aren't going to be able to afford to take that ferry anywhere or have money leftover to shop at all!

Is there state income tax as well? I assume so!

Thus, it is essential that my spouse also continue to work. Besides that, he would be bored if he didn't work--and I can't say that he'd be too keen on forfeiting his livelihood for mine. He's actually been considering continuing his business (home designer) via the internet. However, I don't know how his customers (building contractors) would feel about that. They usually like him to go over things in person.

As I finish my PhD, I can relocate just about anywhere I want to go (provided there is a job in my field). This is our opportunity to find the right (ie the best) place and to move "up" in the world. But if Plattsburgh isn't "up," I don't have to move there.

I want to hear the GOOD and the BAD about the area. We can't make a sound decision otherwise.

Hey--about shopping. If the Pburgh mall has all the main shops, why no Macy's? What then is the main hub?

I considered living in Burlington and commuting to Pburgh for the job, but that doesn't sound affordable either--especially if that ferry is over $200 per month. And if houses cost more, all I'd be doing is trading tax dollars for mortgage dollars.

Can a person retire there? It would be awful to live there and work there for the last 20 years of our career lives and then have to give up our home b/c we couldn't afford it.

[EDDOU1290]

BARBALOO: That payscale for civil servants is outrageous! Even a non politically involved person such as myself 'gets' that part if the reason why the real estate taxes are so high is because we are helping fund others retirement. Frankly, I have all I can do to try to fund my own and at $12 something an hour (where I once earned $25/hr) doesn't allow for much prepping. To have to pay for another's retirement? At that degree?

Actually the City employees, County and State level all pay into the SAME NYS Retirement System. I am sure that it varies i.e. just how much you pay, IF the full cost is deducted from your paycheck, or just a percentage, and what, if any co-contribution is made by a specific City, State or County employer or agency.

I pay a percentage of each paycheck into the NYS Retirement system. Right now I am paying app. $27/paycheck. There is NO subsidy for Clinton County employees. However, the particular County agency I work for, after 10 years of employment with THAT agency, they will pay the full retirement contribution. This is NOT true for ALL Clinton County employees & agencies, just the agency that I work in.

Also, one thing that you and Plattsburgher may not be aware of, and I was a bit SHOCKED being just over a year into this system. unlike PRIVATE SECTOR employment, we do NOT have ANY disability coverage. No short term disability is offered. Also, NO Dental/Optical. Just typical Blue Cross, 4 different BC/BS plans offered, one of which offers the VERY basic limited 2 dental cleanings only per year, NO major dental, and one eye exam, no eyewear.

Also NO life insurance coverage. In ALL of my previous private sector jobs, Dental, Optical, Short Term Disability, and Life Insurance were offered as a bundled package, that of which would also be subjected to the same 80/20 type co-pay same as the employer paid for major medical/BC/BS.

We ARE offered Short Term Disability, Dental, & Life Insurance through our local CSEA union, but we must pay 100% of the policy premiums, there is NO County contribution at all.

I do believe that this is NOT the case for City and State employees however. They have better options, with the City of course, being the best, and most expensive as always.

Lastly for PLATTSBURGHER:
I don't know if you read in the past few months about how the Plattsburgh Housing Authority was eliminating 7 positions, or about 7 positions, mostly maintenance workers. The low-income housing projects that the Plattsburgh Housing Authority maintains are numerous and require a full time maintenance staff. Yet the salary of the Director of the Plattsburgh Housing Authority is over $100,000.00 per year!!

I agree with you that something should hit the press about the HUGE discrepency between City, County and State pay scales. The City of Plattsburgh is WAY out of line and beyond reasonable. I highly doubt that the City School System is entirely to blame for the City tax problem. The entire City payscale system has a lot to do with it I am certain.

[EDDOU1290]

Also, another hit my paycheck takes in Union Dues, per paycheck, about $16.00. So, overall, adding in that I have to pay a good portion to NYS Retirement System, Union Dues, and 100% of my Short Term Disability, Dental and Life, AND that the work week is 35 hours NOT 40, I am making FAR less in public employment than I did in Private Sector. But I guess in a few years, that will change.

The pluses are HUGE opportunities for advancement, JOB SECURITY, and the Retirement benefit will be a nice addition to Social Security, if that is still around.

PS the Union Dues are MANDATORY. It is considered "Closed Shop Union". ALL employees, even supervisors MUST be a union member. There is NO choice. You can officially "decline" to join the union, however they will STILL take the union dues from you, but maybe $1.00 less or a bit more,,,,,, then they will not use that portion to contribute to "lobbying expenses". Don't ask me to explain the logic in this, I'm still too new to understand that portion of the system myself.

[EDDOU1290]

Hi,
I haven't had the chance to talk to you directly.
I would be happy to mail you a copy of the Clinton County Home Guide if you wish, to a physical mailing address not e-mail. There are many color photos of various homes offered for sale, and selling prices. Or I could send you the links to the most popular realtors web sites.

If you wish me to do this you can send me a pvt message on THIS chat board with your address so that you don't have to post it here.

City utilities are among the lowest in the nation. The City of Plattsburgh is a Municipal power system. The rates have increased recently but are still, I believe, in the top 5 lowest. Water however, from what I hear, has skyrocketed. (I don't pay water, I rent).

In my opinion, City utility rates are one of the few good things that the City of Plattsburgh has going for it. If you live outside the City, then you will be most likely served by NYSEG, New York State Electric and Gas, and you will PAY dearly.

[EDDOU1290]

Can a person retire there? It would be awful to live there and work there for the last 20 years of our career lives and then have to give up our home b/c we couldn't afford it.

Actually SNOWLANDCOOK, retirees, Senior Citizens and Seniors living on fixed incomes are the ones loosing their homes now. They are the first round to be hit. Yes there ARE NYS income taxes as well. Plattsburgh shopping opportunities have seriously decreased since the late 1980's, early 90's. Major anchor stores in the ONE mall we have are Sears, JC Penney, Dicks Sporting Goods, Old Navy, a SMALL Best Buy (TINY compared to the one in VT.), Gander Mountain, and a SMALL Borders Bookstore, nothing like Barnes & Nobel. Other shopping strips include Staples, Wal-Mart, SAMS Club, K-Mart, & Lowes. There are 3 major grocery stores, not including Wal-Mart grocery. Hannaford (previously Shop N Save, or Hannaford Bros. of Scarborough Maine) but un-fortunately they have sold out to FOOD LION and KEEP the Hannaford name, quality is DOWN. Price Chopper (a Schnectady NY based family chain of supermarkets, with a SuperCenter in Plattsburgh) and P&C, which I believe is in its final days here, being un-able to compete against Price Chopper & Wal-Mart.

One other example, on a recent trip to VT. gas was $2.29/gal. while here in NY it was $2.79. Vermont, Burlington, Winnoski, Essex Junction, Williston and Shelburne, all beautiful areas, much more so than Plattsburgh, DO have some serious housing issues. In Vermont, rents and mortgages are high, I am not sure about taxes. However, there is MUCH more selection. Also, if this is important to you, Vermont is VERY PROGRESSIVE. From issues like State wide health insurance being debated, to same-sex civil unions (first in the U.S. to pass that one) on to a recent announcement by the new Burlington City Mayor that the City of Burlington is inviting anyone with a financial background, to volunteer to work with City Councilors on managing the City Budget, all around, Upstate NY is and has been noted as "backwards" and Vermont as very "progressive". The worst thing I can think about Vermont is CRIME. Forget Vermont maple syrup, Skiing in Stowe, cows, pastures, and beautiful hills rolling with dandelions as the VT commercials have you believe (yes the DO have them) but in the urban VT areas CRIME is rampant. Home invasions with guns, basically people kicking in the doors of homeowners and robbing them at gun point, DRUGS, DRUGS did I say drugs? Murders, LOTS of murders. VT is NOT as most would think. Muggings, robberies, bank robberies, credit union robberies, abduction & murder (both just the past 2 months), and VT finally had it's first mass school shooting a few months back in Essex Junction. The ONLY thing I have not heard of yet in VT is a car jacking. However, I'm sure it's not as bad as L.A.

Here are some realtors sites to check:
This one below, has two popular area realtors listed, click on each one to check them out......
Moderator cut: [urls]

[plattsburgher]

it is the land of "haves" and "have nots" here. If you have a job that pays 40 thousand or up, and have an average house (most are 3 bedrooms and 2 baths, family room) in the city with city electric heat and water (I have never had a water bill over 40 bucks), you will be fine. Especially now. I used to live in a place that had 8% sales tax (on everything......food, drugs, everything), but there was no state income tax. It seems there is always something.....the government either gets you one way or another or both! It seems like here at least you get many benefits......the schools are superb, quality of life is great, people are friendly, there are outdoor activities, crime is non-existent, and the city is clean and the natural beauty of the area is amazing. Are there negatives? Yes, I personally do miss shopping the big stores at this time of year, but I do go to Burlington at least once a month. I would not recommend living in Burlington and commuting since as I said before, crossing that lake and living in Vermont immediately adds at least 100 thousand to a home. I don't think that anyone can say that Burlington is a high crime area per capita. It is a good sized city and almost all (very sadly) of the few crimes are domestic violence related or in the run-down parts of town. And yes, there are 7 colleges in Burlington, so there are drugs, but I have never heard of any gangs or that sort of violence. There are houses busted occasionally with pot growers or coke sellers, but it is usually in certain areas and most people know exactly where they are located. It isn't anywhere a college professor would be living. Mostly rentals in the oldest, most rundown areas.....
For Ed: We work in the health care industry and I have never had anyone fund any of my benefits until I recently got a union job at the hospital. I have had more pay raises in the last few years at a regular interval than in my entire life, so I am not anti-union at all. Those of us in the private sector don't always have great (or any) retirement packages, insurance packages, or other benefits.......especially these days with employers cutting costs on everything they can to keep down prices. I am still funding my own health insurance along with most self-employed individuals and less than full-time workers.....
However, would I retire here????????? I don't remember that question ever being asked before and I would have to say "no"! I have a lot of teacher friends and most of them worked up here for twenty-five years, raised their children in this town, then took their NYS fantastic teacher retirement down to Florida, or North/South Carolina and are living where it is warm.....with food, gas, utilities definitely cheaper, so that retirement check goes much further than it would here. That is what I plan to do, also. I don't like the cold.......There have been a record number of boomers retiring in the last 3 years and many new hires in the area. I am sure you know it is a buyer's market now for real estate, so you might be pleasantly surprised at what size, type home your money will buy you here. It isn't in the league with the southern cities, but it is much different than most of the other areas in the northeast. There is a city of Plattsburgh website and it is called "Experience Plattsburgh"......You can google it and access pics and government links as well.......Hopefully, you can come and visit sometime and just talk to different people who live here. There is also a listing under this city-data website for Plattsburgh. You sound like a nice person. You should come and visit here anyway, whether you decide to live here and take the job or not. There is a lot to see............a lot of Revolutionary War history and some museums and gorgeous old Victorian/lakefront homes that will take your breath away. Right now if you look across Lake Champlain, Mt. Mansfield (Stowe skiing area) is spectacularly white with the blue sky background and a bright moon......It isn't even that cold today, so I walked along the lake for a bit. Guess I should complain more, but I feel very lucky......Good luck with your decision-making process. It isn't easy at all to decide......

[nunoco]

Snowlandcook,
I gave you a quite optimistic view a couple of months ago, and stand by it. I think it all hinges on your job. The housing is affordable, especially in the city, where if you have electric heat, your utilities are a bargain. Outside the city, the utilities will hurt you. The taxes just had a huge jump, yes, but they're more in line with other towns this size in the state. A new mayor with a reputation as a cost-cutter takes office next month.
It's not perfect, but I agree you should visit and take a look for yourself. Best of luck.

[nunoco]

"I also agree with you about the ferry system. How much of a monopoly is that.........the only way across the lake to Burlington is a privately owned ferry???????? That just seems wrong. If we can build bridges across Lake Ponchartrain and Cheasapeake Bay for miles and miles, can't we figure out some way to build a friggin bridge from Vermont to NY????????? I feel almost like I am being robbed whenever I take the ferry............."

I agree. I just moved here less than a year ago, but one thing seem obvious.
Why no ferry from downtown Plattsburgh to downtown Burlington? My idea: a "green" ferry (hybrid-engine boats?) from the marina during the nice weather for pedestrians, bikes and (maybe) motorcycles. Might take an hour or less with a high-speed boat. Run it during rush hours and more often on weekends for tourists.
Something else, less obvious, crazy even:
The city has an exceptional old infrastructure, and they've taken some great steps in how they've used the base (though they've screwed some things up, too).
Somebody on this thread mentioned rail builders: why not an experimental trolley line (Plattsburgh used to have trolleys), one from the new airport into the city, connecting with another across town from downtown to the mall area, powered by the cheap, clean Hydro-Quebec energy? There are state grants for this sort of thing--the transportation MUSEUM got an 800K grant, for Pete's sake. Get Bombardier and its contractors on board.
The oil era is ending, maybe soon. Why shouldn't Plattsburgh be ahead of the curve?

[EDDOU1290]

There is a ferry that docks right smack in downtown Burlington. But it's at Port Kent on the NY side, and THAT crossing takes 1 hour. Since Burlington is about 25-28 miles South of Plattsburgh, a direct ferry from the downtown area of Plattsburgh to downtown Burlington would probably take 1.5 to 2 hours.

I agree though, there should be a bridge. For all you newcomers to the area, I remember that there was a study quite a few years ago to determine the feasability of a bridge in the area where the ferry is now. There was some lame excuse about the lake being too deep etc. !! That didn't seem to stop the bridge in Rouses Point or Crown Point from going up. I believe, with NO data to back me up, that there are FAR less bridge crossings in Rouses Point and Crown Point combined compared to the heavy traffic that the ferry on Cumberland Head gets.

Now a bridge starting somewhere in downtown Plattsburgh to Vt. that would be KEWL!

[EDDOU1290]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that I was anti union, actually I am quite PRO union. I was just saying that in my previous years of private sector employment, the packaging of benefits seemed to be better, and cost less, than my now new "union" job.

But as I said earlier, I have something now that I NEVER had in the past, union representation, job security that is second to none, (on par with your job security I'm sure), and a retirement system.

Honestly, I could sit here now and say, and I have over the years, that Plattsburgh needs more "good" manufacturing jobs. BUT, then again, look how many we're loosing to China every day, so it doesn't matter if you're in Plattsburgh, or Boise Idaho for that matter.

My previous background being all hi-tech, it's amazing how many "technical support" jobs have moved to India. I never did "tech support" myself, I was a on-site field repair technician, but the tech support jobs that were available in all the companies I worked for were good paying jobs, usually better paying than the on site field technician jobs that I had.

Now these days when you call Dell, Gateway, Compaq, or any "support" line for that matter you're dealing with someone in India with such a accent that you can barely carry on a conversation. I have been around many cultural backgrounds in my life, those that spoke many many languages, and never had a problem interacting or working with such people. It seems though that when your dealing with India, and on the phone, it's a much different scenario, and I'm hearing this from many other people as well.

take care