Why we moved FROM NY state

[IfULivedHere]

I didn't have time to read through all 8 pages of postings, just the first page and the last. Unfortunately I've seen that the post topic has diverted a bit into a discussion of Buffalo demographics, no problem.

Homeword Bound I'm with you. Grew up in Roch suburbs and moved to Baltimore after school at Mich St and Penn St respectively. Back over Xmas I decided that one of unique characteristics about the smaller upstate cities Roch, Syr, and I won't speak for Buff is their isolation. It's kept them relatively unappealing for the I-95ers of the east coast who have pushed in eastern PA, western/northern New Eng, western maryland, eastern WV down virginia, and the carolinas searching for space and fresh air.

I can drive across the entire Roch metro area from 490 by say Gates/Chili high school to Victor in about 15mins. That's crossing about 8 towns and an entire self-contained city. The upstate cities have everything that people from southern Cal to Dever to D.C. have in terms of services, restaurants, education and so on. It's not like one has to go to the "big city" anymore to find a wedding dress or have a heart transplant. In that same 15mins people from the DC/northern VA can't drive 1 mile on the Capital Beltway, even on the weekends. I can do a little better up in Baltimore but even then I can't drive across an entire city.

My point is the upstate cities offer a “big city” lifestyle in a much smaller package. It's not like people in the Roch, Buff, Syr, or Albany suburbs (I will speak for Buff in this case) live in the country or in the middle of nowhere - although it is possible by choice. They are minutes (15min or less usually) from everything they need - the latest fashions, movies, sports, family activities, friday night fish fries. And all without the crowds of the east or west coast. There's probably some places in the mid-west that compare or the south (like a Huntsville, AL) but very few places in this country with "big city" amenities and quality of life for such small town prices.

Also something that is unique to NY and most of the northeast, as well as the upper midwest is the notion of towns. A town provides identity and center of community. A northeast town, at least in the metropolitan suburbs – not for the more rural areas, is a self-sufficient municipality with schools, police/fire departments, libraries, local government, and town rec programs.

In contrast to that in the Maryland/Virginia region it seems there are no towns, at least not in the sense of how the northeast defines towns. Town is just a center of commerce, or an area with a post office and zip code. School districts are defined boundaries drawn at the county level and where you say you live is just merely a function of your zip code, or your proximity to a city – an unofficially designated reference point to tell people where you live. People who live in “Pleasantville” (a fictional place, don’t try to mapquest) don’t grow up going to “Pleasantville Junior High” and “Pleasantville High School” or go to the coffee shop in the “Village of Pleasantville”, or get pulled over by “Pleasantville” police for speeding. “Pleasantville” instead may look like a village and if your house shares the zip code with “Pleasantville” you say you live in “Pleasantville” and if there is a high school in “Pleasantville” it may be named “Pleasantville High School”. Kids go to “Pleasantville” high school because that’s how the district boundaries of the county are drawn. Kids in “TheZipCodeNextToPleasantville”, and “TheZipCodeNextToTheZipCodeNextToPville” if that’s how the boundaries are drawn may go there too. What happens is when the boundaries have to be redrawn because of population influxes people go nuts when their kids then have to change schools. Affluent neighborhoods generally are immune because no one would dare redistrict their kids and most of the time they are centrally located enough that it wouldn’t happen anyway. There are no organized public school sports at the junior/middle school level so if you want to be involved you go to a “Rec. League” which is typically organized around a zip code within the county (“Pleasantville Rec.”)– no towns remember. People jockey to put their kids in the “best” rec. program even if it is further away from their area. Since every zip code doesn’t have a “village” everyone congregates to the same few “Towns” creating chaos. Try going out to a family dinner on a Friday or Saturday night, or watching the 4th of July fireworks.

I have young kids and I know where they could possibly go to school – elementary, middle, and high. But there are 2 elementary schools within about 1 mile of us. 4 middle schools within about 3 miles, and 3 high schools within about 3 miles. They could end up going to any of those schools. None of them are bad public schools but there’s no identity. At any time boundaries could be redrawn and kids may end up switching schools. Not as much sense of community as a Lancaster, East Aurora, Camilus, Perinton (Fairport), Penfield, or Orchard Park. The county is the lowest level of true government. I’m sure that the reason for this, at least in my immediate area, is that 30 years ago most of it was farmland. Now it’s McMansion neighborhoods. A tradeoff is that we pay much lower property taxes than northeasterners because we only have to support the county. There are no dedicated “school taxes” like you guys have. Development has it’s pluses and minus public sewer and water rarely extend more that about 2-3 miles beyond the “town” making current new construction require about 2acres for well and septic. That has lead to a lack of “starter home” neighborhoods but instead a plethora of McMansion neighborhoods. There are very few tradeoffs in home prices around the area it costs just as much to live “in town” as it does to live outside of town. Good school districts can certainly raise the price, but poorer school districts don’t necessarily lower the price proportionately. What we do have are jobs in government and private industry. Closer proximity to many regions of the country via car, rail, and air.

Like I wrote earlier the upstate cities are a unique place. People not from the region don’t really understand it, and people who live there sometimes don’t appreciate it. For us who have left we have great childhood memories of small town life; bike riding on quiet roads, boating on the finger/great lakes, town fire department carnivals, and Wegmans with mom. Going to the “city” for Amercks/Sabres/SU games. Rooting for Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, and Daryl Tally to hopefully win a superbowl. We’ll always associate those things with our perfect upstate and, like you said, that will be the bar by which all other places are measured, whether consciously or unconsciously.

I don’t think I’ll ever be able to convince my wife to permanently move, at least not during the children rearing years, but am looking forward to the possibility of buying a piece of property for the future or a small cabin for weeks in the summer, holidays, and a few long weekends. That way at least I’ll never ruin my perfect Norman Rockwell childhood memories with the realities that accompany daily living no matter where one lives.

Thanks for the thread.

[Aerobars]

Originally Posted by homeward bound

(In reference to Virginia) and there are almost no reservoirs (NO natural lakes!) to speak of, much less swim and fish in. The ones that do exist are ugly, crowded mudholes once you've been spoiled by Upstate NY's countless REAL lakes, streams, ponds, and rivers.

Have you been to Smith Mountain Lake? Not far from Roanoke or Lynchburg and I would put it up against any of the finger lakes in terms of beauty (ok, some areas are starting to be over developed). But a wide water view with the mountains in the background can't be beat.

[homeward bound]

Originally posted by Aerobars:

"Have you been to Smith Mountain Lake? Not far from Roanoke or Lynchburg and I would put it up against any of the finger lakes in terms of beauty (ok, some areas are starting to be over developed). But a wide water view with the mountains in the background can't be beat."

Yes, I have. And to every other major reservoir and river in Virginia, except Lake Moomaw. I don't want to be overly negative. To me, even a disappointing body of water is better than no body of water. (I understand the desert's appeal to people, but it's nightmarish to me: I feel actually threatened without freshwater around!) And I certainly respect people liking different things for different reasons.

But I've got to stand by my now-long-ago whining about Virginia reservoirs vs. northern natural lakes.

Probably this is at least partly due to the inherent difference between lakes and reservoirs per se. I remember finding Upstate NY's Alleghany Reservoir kind of lifeless, or at least artificial-feeling, compared to natural bodies of water. I've never looked this up, though I should, but it seems that, on a per-acre basis, an unpolluted natural lake has a LOT more life and biodiversity than even a well-managed/balanced reservoir.

This has long been one of the things I've most missed about Upstate NY, especially vs. Ol' Virginny. Granted, Virginia has some truly lovely rivers. The James is very interesting, fun, and varied, changing from a mountain stream to a huge tidal force, for hundreds of miles, going right through Richmond, etc. I've fished, canoed, waded, and camped on it often, and loved every minute of it. I owe it a lot of gratitude, since it would have been right to drown me a half-dozen times, given the dumb canoeing and wading moves I've made on it. The New River, while claustrophobic to me, since so much of it is deep within dark mountain valleys, has its beauty, too. The Shenandoah and Maury rivers are certainly very pretty. And little rivers like the Rockfish, which goes into the James at the almost-a-ghost-town of Howardsville, are great. You can have miles of them to yourself, since so many boaters and fisherman swarm the big reservoirs. Some of the best times of my life have been long summer evenings wading the Rockfish, the fireflies lighting up the whipporwills. You can't do that and not be in love with that river, and Virginia.

Still, compared to what Upstate NY offers in terms of natural bodies of water, and, even more, what Ontario offers (which is just unbelievable), I think only the true Great Lakes states (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan) compare for New York's variety, purity, and sheer abundance of freshwater. They spoil you. I never knew how much the little bass streams and ponds of Allegany County shaped me until, ten years after living in Virginia (14 years ago), I found myself trying to transplant lily pads from the James River into a barren reservoir outside of Charlottesville. ONLY Virginia's rivers compare to northern waters, to me.

In terms of the Finger Lakes, what distinguishes them to me is, first, the fact that most of them are incredibly clear, deep, and pure-seeming, even after all these years of hosting towns, cities, and even industry. (I've heard that the zebra mussel actually deserves credit for some of this!)

Second, since the Finger Lakes are natural, they've been around to truly shape the towns and cities built around them. The towns owe their existence to the lakes--they pay a kind of homage. And each lake has a distinct identity that, in turn, has given the towns and cities on the respective lakes a distinct quality. You can feel each lake's presence just by the contour of the roads, the feeling in the air, the quality of light, the old mills and wine warehouses, the special lake-side soil, etc., in the towns and small cities around them. And there's nothing like the beauty of the lake-side orchards, vineyards, and meadows sweeping down to sword of blue amid the rolling gold and green. Driving the east-west roads from Finger Lake to Finger Lake has got to be one of the most beautiful gifts of living in America.

Third, again because they're ancient, they've shaped human behavior and customs for so long that they seem living entities in people's lives--for generations past and generations now and generations to come. There's a profound continuity that they've created and symbolize, and still promise for the future. New reservoirs just seem *too* new to me--as if they haven't had nearly the time to seep into people's bones and spirit enough yet. They have a sense of impermanence about them that's kind of unsettling. By contrast, at a Finger Lake, you can't watch a grandpa teach his grandkid to fish at the end of some ancient and still-used deer trail down to the lake and not see the double-image of an Indian elder doing the same for his grandkid a thousand years ago. It's like you're watching waves of generations in synch with the waves of the water.. History--human history and natural history and how they work together--just doesn't texture reservoirs the way it does natural lakes.

Some of this stems from my belief that earlier generations, since they generally had to work with nature much more than we do, and were vulnerable to nature much more than we are, were indeed more shaped by the nature around them. Its rhythms, seasons, moods, fruits, and pains were more exacting, more demanding of them in the age before nylon and antibiotics and central heating and all the things that make our lives easier and safer, yet often so insulted from nature and reality. Back then, for worse and better, life and death and nature reached people more often and more deeply. Well into the Industrial Revolution, only the very very rich could live untouched, unshaped by this. Most people truly drew their living, and probably a lot of perspective on their lives, from these lakes or their natural equivalent where they lived--and not just their entertainment, the way Americans seem to now with their jet-ski restlessness. You had to bend your life around the lake, and what it meant, even while you were trying to bend it to your own will and wishes so you could survive and eke out a few luxuries. Whereas now, what a reservoir means is, "WE tell a river to become a lake because WE are nature's God--I shall change ten million years' flow of water so it can make my goes-too-fast toys amuse me." No personal slur intended, and I respect that they're needed for drinking water supplies and flood control, but there's something fundamentally un-humble, even arrogant, about a reservoir. While a lake, seen the right way, is a beautifully humbling thing.

Add all this up, and watching my one-and-a-half-year-old lose his balance while throwing rocks into Keuka Lake, the hug of old Hammondsport right behind him, because a passing heron has caught his marveling eye, and come out of the water giggling, sand in his ears, is uniquely touching and connecting to me: the ghosts who did the same thing in 1790 and 1850 and 1922, when life was so fragile that it seemed to be cherished more, are right there beside us. And when we're gone from there, we'll be back there, too....

[Gretchen570]

I too can recall the old fashioned goodness of those areas, went water skiing on Keuka.Had a beautiful day with my family there, many years ago.
It is unfortunate that the state did not do more with the laws to keep the business there. My dad would have shoveled dirt at the time to move us back permanently, but he found much better opportunity elsewhere, so we did not get to stay. Yet, today I fondly recall my grandmother making dinner , shopping downtown and seeing a movie at the theatre.That is all gone now, unfortunately, the prisons are three in that area now and they provide a steady draw of that genre.It was that a relative informed me of this since they still do live there, that convinced me not to go back.
He said the crime was at an all time high, and that daily shootings were in the paper of some of the downtown areas surrounding the region. He also told me it was because alot of the prison population ends up drawing gangs to the area and then he said they moved in to stay.I was very saddened to hear this and frankly found it appauling!!
Not all of it is ruined however, and I do plan on a visit sometime to see family , reminisce and take some time to see friends.
How we all long for small town America, I too concur.
I will never forget all of the memories I had there and that is something nobody can take away.

[Njrover0216]

I left NY(Watertown area) because:
1. There are no GOOD jobs
2. In general there is not much to do, especially for children!
3. The closest 4 year college is over an hour and a half away.
4. The houses are run down and people were not fixing them up.
5. Did I mention there are no jobs?

[smalltownusa]

Originally Posted by Aerobars

Have you been to Smith Mountain Lake? Not far from Roanoke or Lynchburg and I would put it up against any of the finger lakes in terms of beauty (ok, some areas are starting to be over developed). But a wide water view with the mountains in the background can't be beat.

Google Canadice Lake New York and take a look at a quinessential lake....we hike the western side every weekend and there is not a more beautiful lake around as far as pristine-ness and serenity.....I actually have a picture of it from this past fall I will try to share that looks too lovely to be real! The lake is a water source for Rochester so there is no development around it....whether it will remain so will be the battle of the century between environmentalists and developers.......

[Krisps]

I grew up near Canadice and Hemlock, spent a lot time swimming and fishing in those beautiful lakes. Today I appreciate how valuable and rare they are in their relatively wild and undeveloped state and love to float around there when I'm in the area. After reading your post, I did a little research. It seems very likely that the land will eventually go to the state and those lakes will remain as they are. Rochester has done those lakes very well.

canadice lake

[smalltownusa]

Originally Posted by Krisps

I grew up near Canadice and Hemlock, spent a lot time swimming and fishing in those beautiful lakes. Today I appreciate how valuable and rare they are in their relatively wild and undeveloped state and love to float around there when I'm in the area. After reading your post, I did a little research. It seems very likely that the land will eventually go to the state and those lakes will remain as they are. Rochester has done those lakes very well.

canadice lake

We can hope. The greedy developers have a way of swaying people with their greenbacks but as I said, one would be hard pressed to find more a more untouched lake anywhere....once, the Adirondacks were as clean until acid rain sterlized the waters.

Canadice has the feel (as Homeward stated) of ancientness that is oozes from the ground as you walk it and the air as you breathe it....and as we begin to have more and more water shortages around the country, the valueness of these lakes become even more evident

[Onancockdaughter]

The beauty of upper NY is incredible. The lakes, mountains, waterfalls. So beautiful sometimes, it's almost unbelievable. I love the old towns -quaint and corny. But I grew up in Queens. It was great when I was little. Forest Park is an oasis of woods and trails in Richmond Hill, but I didn't know much about it until high school. I worked in Manhattan at 18. Bought my first house in Woodhaven, but now I am just over the border into Long Island. My two sisters and a brother live there still so I go. I told my own girls I don't think I can ever leave NY as a permanent home. It is in my being, I think. I can leave for visits though.