Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New York
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-21-2013, 07:13 AM
 
Location: New Jersey!!!!
18,897 posts, read 13,784,999 times
Reputation: 21263

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by npaladin2000 View Post
This isn't about approved NRA lines, this is about someone trying to undermine a logical argument with a logical fallacy designed 100% to simply disgust people.
"Slippery Slope" is a logical fallacy too, another nonsense point commonly made by our side.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-21-2013, 07:30 AM
 
4,135 posts, read 10,780,543 times
Reputation: 2698
Quote:
Originally Posted by npaladin2000 View Post
Dude, you realize the criminals still have access to full automatic weapons with high capacity magazines? You see, criminals don't really respect the law all that much.
Proving the point this is only "feel good" for the liberals .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 11:01 AM
 
341 posts, read 681,963 times
Reputation: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndicottNY View Post
That argument dosen't hold any weight. It's a argument you make when you don't have anything else to say. 12 year old prostitutes aren't something normal, law abiding citizens are interested in. Good citizens are still interested in owning guns, however they make is so much tougher for people to do it legally, while it is as easy as ever to buy illegal guns.
The only reason "law abiding citizens" aren't interesting in 12 year old prostitutes, is because we made under-aged prostitution illegal. If it were legal, all the people interested would be "law abiding citizens".

Saying "When we ban X, only criminals will X" is a tautology. It's meaningless. You are more or less reiterating the definition of the word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npaladin2000 View Post
Until someone threatens to shoot you with a child prostitute, what you just said has absolutely no relationship to reality. You're talking about outlawing a behavior that someone forces on a non-consenting adult. I'm talking about making a tool of defense illegal, defense against those who do not respect the law, and who will likely continue to have a more powerful tool to attack you with.

So let me just translate what you just said:
So, the obvious solution to underaged prostitutes is to lower the age of consent, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by npaladin2000 View Post
This isn't about approved NRA lines, this is about someone trying to undermine a logical argument with a logical fallacy designed 100% to simply disgust people.
My point of using that is to illustrate the silliness of the argument "When you outlaw X, only criminals will X".

Quote:
The law against 12 year old prostitutes is designed to protect the rights of minors and make sure they aren't taken away. Gun "control" laws are NOT designed to protect the rights of anyone: they are designed to take the right to bear arms and protect oneself and one's family AWAY. The notion that it's supposed to protect people from being killed by a gun is also a logical fallacy, because by definition the only people one would be protected from being killed by are law-abiding citizens...who, if they abide by the law, aren't going to kill someone anyway. Unless if course someone assaults them or invades their home, which would make the invader someone who doesn't respect the law, which also means said lawbreaker likely to have an illegal weapon anyway rather than follow the new gun control laws.
Not every law is designed to protect the rights of someone. Some laws are designed to protect the public safety, such as gun regulations.

Quote:
You know, the problem with all these laws that people pass is that those darn lawbreakers just keep refusing to abide by them. Maybe we should make breaking the law against the law.
It already is "against the law".

Quote:
Mind you this is from someone who approves of background checks, mandatory gun safety courses, and consequences for not storing guns safely. All of which codifies the gun owner's individual responsibilities under the law while still not infringing on their Second Amendment rights or their right to protect their family.
And, here we'll agree. However, we should also agree to avoid logical fallacies such as the one that was employed here:"When you outlaw X, only criminals will X". It's akin to saying,"When we ban speeding, only criminals will speed." Well, duh.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
1,618 posts, read 2,611,389 times
Reputation: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheITGuy View Post
It already is "against the law".
So making it more "against the law" helps how? And how will making guns against the law help to protect anyone from those who already do not respect the law? Unless you're expecting the gangs and thieves and murderers to suddenly say "Oh, dear me, my weapon of choice is illegal now, I'd better go find a different one before I attack my next victim!"


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheITGuy View Post
And, here we'll agree. However, we should also agree to avoid logical fallacies such as the one that was employed here:"When you outlaw X, only criminals will X". It's akin to saying,"When we ban speeding, only criminals will speed." Well, duh.
Well, when we ban speeding, the only people speeding will be criminals. Incidentally, speeding laws do tent to criminalize nominally non-criminal behavior, similar to gun control laws. But speeding laws are meant to collect revenue, and gun control laws are meant to collect guns. But I digress. Likewise, when we ban guns, the only people who will have them are criminals. But criminals with guns tend to use them for criminal purposes. And a gun ban is not going to stop them. No "gun control" is going to stop them. They don't operate within the legal gun acquisition system.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 01:00 PM
 
341 posts, read 681,963 times
Reputation: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by npaladin2000 View Post
So making it more "against the law" helps how? And how will making guns against the law help to protect anyone from those who already do not respect the law? Unless you're expecting the gangs and thieves and murderers to suddenly say "Oh, dear me, my weapon of choice is illegal now, I'd better go find a different one before I attack my next victim!"
When you lessen the overall availability of such weapons, it becomes increasingly rare for said weapon to be used in crimes.

That being said, I'm really not for banning assault weapons, or even high-cap magazines. There are better methods to prevent weapons from ending up in criminal's hands, such as making it criminal to allow your weapon to get stolen. Also, titling and registration from birth to death of a gun.

Quote:
Well, when we ban speeding, the only people speeding will be criminals. Incidentally, speeding laws do tent to criminalize nominally non-criminal behavior, similar to gun control laws. But speeding laws are meant to collect revenue, and gun control laws are meant to collect guns. But I digress. Likewise, when we ban guns, the only people who will have them are criminals. But criminals with guns tend to use them for criminal purposes. And a gun ban is not going to stop them. No "gun control" is going to stop them. They don't operate within the legal gun acquisition system.
When we ban tactical nuclear warheads, only criminals will have tactical nuclear warheads.

It's a tautology. It means nothing. Of course criminals don't operate within the law. If they did, they wouldn't be criminals. You are merely reciting the definition of a criminal, without offering substance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
1,618 posts, read 2,611,389 times
Reputation: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheITGuy View Post
When we ban tactical nuclear warheads, only criminals will have tactical nuclear warheads.
We have banned any countries from getting nuclear weapons except for us and the ones we trust. Would you say we have made a nuclear war less likely by doing so? Have the countries we have forbidden to get nuclear weapons simply given in and promised to be good little children?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 04:45 PM
 
Location: New Jersey!!!!
18,897 posts, read 13,784,999 times
Reputation: 21263
A better way to use 12 year olds to illustrate in the context of guns the point that I believe Npaladin is making would be to use a hypothetical world where sex with 12 year olds is legal but with 12 year old prostitutes, it is not. Shock you enough?

The reason just talking about the prostitutes alone is not enough is because that doesn't illustrate the fact that there are millions of citizens who are a part of the gun culture who have not and will not ever commit a crime. On the contrary, most of these people actually commit crimes at far lower rates than the non-firearm owning population according to studies. So one cannot make a fair comparison using gun ownership and a crime that does not have a legal counterpart, because when it comes to guns, there is a far larger legal population than the people who use guns for illegal purposes.

I hope I expressed that point the way I intended to.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 07:41 PM
 
7,072 posts, read 9,559,956 times
Reputation: 4531
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheITGuy View Post
DUDE! You realize criminals still have access to 12 year old prostitutes! Criminals don't respect the law all that much

However, the solution is not to toss out laws against child prostitution.

The solution is to enforce the laws already on the books. If criminals are obtaining guns illegally, why are they not being arrested?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2013, 07:44 PM
 
7,072 posts, read 9,559,956 times
Reputation: 4531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
I'm a gun advocate and owner, but I hate the catchy NRA approved lines most of us use. Point being, don't rag on the guy who mentioned 12 year old prostitutes if you've ever said "well then forks make fat people", "alcohol causes DWI," "what's next knives?," or any other NRA drivel.

Doesn't New York have some silly laws regarding knives?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-22-2013, 08:16 AM
 
341 posts, read 681,963 times
Reputation: 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by npaladin2000 View Post
We have banned any countries from getting nuclear weapons except for us and the ones we trust. Would you say we have made a nuclear war less likely by doing so? Have the countries we have forbidden to get nuclear weapons simply given in and promised to be good little children?
Yes, we have made nuclear war much less likely with our nuclear weapon laws. And, we have made the chances of a domestic nuclear attack by a civilian here as close to zero as possible by banning civilian ownership of tactical nuclear weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
A better way to use 12 year olds to illustrate in the context of guns the point that I believe Npaladin is making would be to use a hypothetical world where sex with 12 year olds is legal but with 12 year old prostitutes, it is not. Shock you enough?
I'm with you. But, let's get 12 year olds out of the picture. Let's just assume 18 y/o+. Prostitution is illegal, and only criminals are prostitutes.

See how meaningless the statement is? Of course people are criminals who break the law. That's the definition of "criminal".

Quote:
The reason just talking about the prostitutes alone is not enough is because that doesn't illustrate the fact that there are millions of citizens who are a part of the gun culture who have not and will not ever commit a crime. On the contrary, most of these people actually commit crimes at far lower rates than the non-firearm owning population according to studies. So one cannot make a fair comparison using gun ownership and a crime that does not have a legal counterpart, because when it comes to guns, there is a far larger legal population than the people who use guns for illegal purposes.

I hope I expressed that point the way I intended to.
And, there are millions of citizens who did nothing wrong until prostitution was made illegal.

There are more than a few studies that have shown a person owning a gun is more likely to die from being shot, than one who is not. There is also at least one study that shows a person carrying a gun is more likely to see a threat where none exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
The solution is to enforce the laws already on the books. If criminals are obtaining guns illegally, why are they not being arrested?
I agree. We need to enforce the laws on the books, along with repealing some of the laws on the books, like "The Protection of Lawful Commerce Act", which makes it nigh impossible to prosecute a dealer who willfully sells to criminal elements.

There are some new laws we do need, like background checks for all sales.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:




Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New York

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top